Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

[_thews]

Wow... yer on a roll.

No, I'm being efficient, thews. I've attempted to separate out what could be considered sub topics from your post.

i answered you... care to comment then?

[_Jersey Girl]

Wow... yer on a roll. OK:

Not really. I've just separated out parts of your original posts to discuss sub-topics.

1) Jesus Christ is God in man to a Christian, not "a" God per Joseph Smith.

Jesus Christ is "God in man". What do you mean by that? How does that correspond to the "a" God per Joseph Smith?

It doesn't.

2) Jesus Christ is not the brother of Satan.

Jesus Christ in Mormonism isn't the brother of Satan either. He was the "spirit brother" of Satan.

Who is Satan?

3) Joseph Smith doesn't have jack to do with salvation, so he has no right to promise salvation to the parents of the little girls he convinced to "give" him their daughters. If judgement is God's, Joseph Smith isn't a God (the point).

Pass. Good rationale.

4) Jesus Christ and God the father are not "two separate and distinct personges" per Joseph Smith.

How do you know they aren't two separate and distinct personages?

Is that enough?

Probably not. Let's keep talking.

[_beastie]

Do you have a convenient way to pull up the "the Saints never left me yet" quote from Joseph Smith on your computer? I was just wondering if you have it easily available in context?

Ask and ye shall receive. I happen to have the HoC on disk.

HoC, Volume 6, page 408

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days [p.409] of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.

Back to my question:

Yes, I believe that.

Then does it really matter if the LDS church is "non-Christian"?

[_Jersey Girl]

Then does it really matter if the LDS church is "non-Christian"?

I think it matters if it's a misrepresentation and I think it is.

[_Jersey Girl]

Ask and ye shall receive. I happen to have the HoC on disk.

Of course you do. I knew that!

Thanks!

[_Jersey Girl]

So thews, thanks to beastie, here is the quote in context:

HoC, Volume 6, page 408

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days [p.409] of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.

Do you think Joseph Smith is right in his evaluation that Paul boasted of his hardships?

[_huckelberry]

Seriously - does any exLDS on this board claim that he/she did NOT view him/herself as a christian when they were believing LDS???

The idea that I wasn't a Christian when I was a believing Mormon is mind-boggling.

Or is that the some here are claiming that LDS may think they are Christians, but are being fooled and just don't know better?

I will never forget reading Talmage's Jesus the Christ and feeling so deeply moved that I felt filled with the spirit for days afterward. Obviously, as an atheist, I now understand that experience differently, but if I were ever to believe in God again, I would never deny that I felt God's spirit as a Mormon, and I felt God's spirit directly associated with knowing Jesus as my Savior.

Are there really exLDS here claiming that they did not really worship Jesus as their Savior???????

Beastie, I find I completely sympathize your comment. I think it is clear Mormons believe in Jesus and in fundamental ways are Christian. I think the idea Mormons are not Christian is almost as bizarre as the idea that they worship some other Jesus, as if Jesus divides from himself every time some Christian alters some doctrine. Now I admit I think Joseph Smith was a bit of a blow hard who spreads more confusion than sense. I just cannot think of any time people, Christian or non, have not had to struggle with confusion from both themselves and their leaders.

[_Yoda]

I have been confused about the claim that Mormons worship "a different Jesus". We worship the Jesus of the New Testament.....the Jesus who gave the Sermon on the Mount....the Jesus who died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.

Is that not the fundamental Jesus that all Christians worship? If so, then how are we not Christian?

Also...Thews indicated that ALL Christian sects perceive Jesus Christ as God incarnate. I was not aware that all Christian sects perceived Jesus in this way.

Mormons do perceive Jesus as God the Father's son. They are separate beings, but one in purpose, and we worship and recognize Jesus as the God of this earth.

Is that the fundamental difference that Thews and GP are talking about here?

[_Gadianton Plumber]

I have been confused about the claim that Mormons worship "a different Jesus". We worship the Jesus of the New Testament.....the Jesus who gave the Sermon on the Mount....the Jesus who died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.

Is that not the fundamental Jesus that all Christians worship? If so, then how are we not Christian?

Also...Thews indicated that ALL Christian sects perceive Jesus Christ as God incarnate. I was not aware that all Christian sects perceived Jesus in this way.

Mormons do perceive Jesus as God the Father's son. They are separate beings, but one in purpose, and we worship and recognize Jesus as the God of this earth.

Is that the fundamental difference that Thews and GP are talking about here?

Do all the other Churches worship a Jesus that appeared in the Americas? That requires polygamy? That is more interested in the temple (old law) than in his own Atonement (new law)? The same Jesus that appeared to Joseph Smith standing next to the Father? That is the head of the LDS church and considers all others abominations? The same Jesus that will not accept you if his fallible prophet excommunicates you? Is the same Son of God that said no more additions shall be made to His word? Do they worship a Jesus who is the literal sibling of Satan? Do they know that Jesus is not eternal? He is not an infinite God? Just one of potentially trillions? Does the Mormon Jesus love unconditionally?

[_Yoda]

But to claim that I call myself a Christian because I am too embarrassed to call myself a Mormon is also wrong. I am not embarrassed to be associated with the Mormon Church.

While I understand the NOM plight, I fail to understand your point.

My point is that you accused me of calling myself Christian because I was too embarrassed to refer to myself as a Mormon. I have never been embarrassed to refer to myself as a Mormon, but I also believe I am Christian. I worship Jesus Christ....the Jesus Christ of the New Testament. I see no contradiction in using both terms.

Out of curiosity, what Christian sect to do you belong to? Do you agree with every tenet of doctrine within your sect?

It seems that we are fundamentally at an impasse. I don't see a problem with disagreeing with tenets of doctrine in any religion. I disagree with polygamy. I disagree with the racism that occurred within the Church. Am I embarrassed that the Church took the stance it did on those issues? Yes. Does that make me embarrassed to be associated with the Mormon Church overall? No.

If i were to venture a guess, I would assume you put so much "good" in the way of life bucket that it overrides the part of Mormonism that is associated with a false prophet of God; please correct me if I'm wrong.

And if I were to venture a guess, I would assume that you are extremely bitter toward the LDS Church. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (See how that works? It isn't fun to have attitudes and words put in your mouth that you haven't explicitly expressed, is it?)

Having been a member of the Church for the past 45 years, though, I will correct you when I believe you have misrepresented a portion of Church doctrine.

You claimed that Mormons regard Jesus as "just another God", and that is not the case. As Jason pointed out, Mormons worship Jesus, and revere Him as "one with the Father".

And, as I have pointed out, the Joseph Smith version of Jesus Christ is not the same as it is outside of Mormonism. I don't know you, nor do i have a right to judge you, but I can comment on your words and state my own opinion.

As can I. And, you certainly have attempted to personalize my opinions, and make "guesses" and judgments regarding my attitudes and opinions which are inaccurate.

I see Mormonism as a great evil as my conviction to the Bible dictates the words of a false prophet will lead people away from truth ("I never really knew you"). If you believe the good in the lifestyle is worth the trade-off to truth I'll disagree, and for what it's worth Jason doesn't buy into a lot of it, so I understand why you'll side with his stance.

I believe that Joseph was a fallen prophet. He made grave mistakes when it came to promoting polygamy. I believe that he was genuinely inspired to write the Book of Mormon. However, my personal view is that the Book of Mormon is inspired allegory rather than historical fact.

I don't see Mormonism as a "great evil". I see it as another Christian sect where people can worship Christ and feel a sense of community. There are aspects of the Church and doctrinal tenets that I strongly disagree with, but I don't see the Church as "evil".

I have friends in many different religions. Most of my friends do not blindly follow all of the tenets of their church. Some don't even know what all of them are.

I think there is room for disagreement in any religion you choose. The important thing is to be the best person you can be.