Are 8-yr olds able to decide to be baptized?

[_truth dancer]

At what age should parents allow their children to join Scientology? Jehovah Witnesses? The FLDS? Or any other religion or cult?

LDS parents only agree with the eight year old directive because it is THEIR choice for their child.

Personally, if I had to do it over I would say, eighteen.

~td~

[_MsJack]

P.S. Did the early Church baptize children that young, or is this a recent turn of events?

And if you want to go back to the early "early Church," infant baptism is mentioned by the late second and early third centuries as a normative function. The Didache (late first century) gives instructions for baptisms to be performed by pouring if water for immersion can't be had, though it only speaks to the baptism of adults.

I have no desire to practice infant baptism myself, but I don't think baptizing my children at age 8 would be much different. Either you want baptism to be your child's independent choice, or you don't. 8 wouldn't be old enough for me to be confident that my daughter was thinking for herself and making the decision on her own.

You are right on the money, Mom.

:-)

Thanks Jersey Girl. I was 12 when I got baptized, the only person attending church in my family, and I made the decision all by my lonesome.

Well, my grandfather (who died when I was 2) had me baptized into the Nazarene Church as an infant, but I didn't even hear about this until the day I asked to be baptized by immersion.

[_Yoda]

At what age should parents allow their children to join Scientology? Jehovah Witnesses? The FLDS? Or any other religion or cult?

LDS parents only agree with the eight year old directive because it is THEIR choice for their child.

Personally, if I had to do it over I would say, eighteen.

~td~

Here is an example I will give regarding my feelings on the issue.

When my daughter and her best friend, Amy, were 14, Amy began going to Church with us. Soon, Amy was interested in joining the Church and asked to take the missionary discussions. After speaking with her parents, we had the missionary discussions at our home. Amy is originally from China and her parents are Budhist. They have been in the US for quite some time, and had no problem with Amy going to Church with us, or even taking the missionary discussions. Her mother, however, was insistent that she not get baptized until she was 18.

Amy and I spoke privately, and she asked me if I thought she should try to push the issue with her mother about baptism before 18.

I was very honest with her. I told her that being LDS was a huge life commitment, and that her mother was absolutely right in insisting that she wait until she was a legal adult to make that type of decision. I advised her that it was unwise to go against her mother's wishes, and that she should honor her parents above all else.

I also told her that she was welcome to come to church activities with us, and that she could basically do everything the other youth were doing as a non-member except for temple baptisms.

She was fine with that. And, as a result, we have maintained a good relationship with her parents...and, more importantly, SHE has maintained a good relationship with her parents.

She has since lost interest in the Church somewhat. She doesn't go with us all the time, but occasionally comes to seminary and mutual activities.

As a youth exploring the Church, I honestly think that waiting until 18 is best.

However, my son, who is 6, and goes to Primary every Sunday, will likely be baptized when he is 8. Do I really see it as an independent choice on his part? Well, no. It is tradition. It is one of those milestones like graduation, etc.

And, since he is being raised in an active Mormon family, I don't really see a problem with it.

That being said, however, all of my kids are aware of my unorthodox views on various issues involving the Church; I haven't hidden anything from them.

[_zeezrom]

Liz,

Thank you for great insights. I agree it is a tradition and that is how I'm looking at it. I don't look at it as having any special power to actually cleanse my precious little child. I guess I could look at it as a way of entering the church and starting on the path (which at times I think is silly and ludicrous) or a way to become part of the group (which at times I wonder if it is a cult). It is a little problematic (not confusing) for me in some ways. I have some time to think about it. What bothers me most is the "testimonies" people bear on the children at the baptisms.

[_Euthyphro]

I remember many things about the baptism process that I never talked about. At eight years old, the high level picture of baptism for me was an opportunity to please my parents, but especially my father. He was, at the time, quick to anger and quite incapable of conversing with children without punctuating the episode with some kind of threat. But I loved him the way any boy loves his father, unconditionally and completely, as if it were a requirement for living encoded into my DNA. A thrall, the age of eight was the arrival of that opportunity and I wasn't going to miss it, but that doesn't mean I didn't have thoughts about alternatives.

Our ward bishop was a gentle, soft spoken man and my parents were present at my interview with him. I liked him and I would actually have preferred to have talked with him alone. When three adults are in a room with you and the subject of conversation is your present "choice" it's rather intimidating. The whole exercise for the child is becomes guessing what answers you think they want to hear. "Yes, I want to be baptized." "Yes, I'll keep coming to church" (as if I had any choice there). "Yes, I promise to obey the word of wisdom."

My mother looked on with the expectancy of a rocket scientist monitoring the launch of the space shuttle, an exciting event whose outcome was nearly certain. I wondered as I glanced at her from time to time what kind of responses I might get from my parents and bishop if I had voiced any concerns at all, let alone declared that I had chosen not to be baptized.

Entertaining thoughts like that was harder because I was not fully aware of the situation. I thought that the turning of eight was a special event with a one-time opportunity to get baptized, not the beginning of an open-ended invitation. Obviously I had not been exposed to many people in my life who were not also believers. I realize looking back that the appearance of universal belief was a carefully crafted illusion. My smokin' drinkin' grandpa for example was a "Jack Mormon", and I was told he was simply too weak to give up his cigarettes. We were to pity him.

It was also unclear to me just how Jesus fit into the scheme, other than being the man to whom we address our prayers. I thought it was all very complicated and I should probably leave it to my elders to interpret it and decide what's best for me. To this day the concept of subsitutionary atonement is incomprehensible to me.

There was another kind of intellectual puzzle surrounding baptism that I grasped at about seven when the subject of baptism came up more frequently: If children are sinless until they are eight and we most desire to return to live with our heavenly father, then the most logical action would be for me to kill myself somehow before I could be held accountable for the deed. This led me to consider ways in which I might do it painlessly, and I didn't get very far before I shelved this line of thinking. I realized that no matter how logical it seemed I wasn't actually going to go through with it. I wanted to live. But the remainder of these thoughts was my first experience of doubt that what I was being taught was either incorrect or incomplete.

At my baptism, there was a piano-accompanied hymn and a few quick speeches. The one I most remember was my mother's in which she let me know that there had been times when she and my father had been too harsh with me. The water in the font was lukewarm and as I waded in I wanted to reach over and crank the hot spigot. I didn't like the dunking; dad had to do it three times because the witnesses said my toe kept surfacing. The third time father held my feet down with one of his. One of my friends noted that I must have been extra bad because it took three times to get all those sins warshed off. This got lots of laughs from everyone but me.

Although I felt happy to now be an official member of God's fold, the coming of age, the baptism, the blessing afterward did not come with the spiritual transformation I was expecting. I did not suddenly leap forward spiritually or emotionally, and that was privately very disappointing, which lent to my growing suspicion over the years that I am exceptionally evil.

To sum up, there were certainly things about it I didn't understand, but I have to say the most important bits are still a total fuckin' mystery to me, so doing it at eight or at thirty-eight wouldn't have made much difference.

[_Some Schmo]

I don't consider directing a child to baptism at 8 is unreasonable or a case of forcing them. Do we not also direct them to go to school? D&C 68:25

I would like to know if anyone knows of active LDS parents having an 8 year old that refused to be baptized?

This happens often when the parents are ambivalent about religion, "social Mormons" etc., and then give the decision to the child.

Wow, really? You'd think children, being so much closer to the preexistence, would be chomping at the bit to get baptised. How strange!

I think it's funny that real Mormons (as opposed to bcspace) want to believe their children are making this decision for themselves when clearly they are not. If they actually had a real say in it, most of them would not, and the ones who would 99 times out of 100 would be doing it just to please their parents.

I agree with Dawkins: it's emotional (and intellectual) child abuse.

[_why me]

Question for you, why me.

Is it right or wrong to lie?

Lie about what?

[_Yoda]

If they actually had a real say in it, most of them would not, and the ones who would 99 times out of 100 would be doing it just to please their parents.

Why do you think they would not? They get a special day in addition to their birthday where they are the 100% focus of positive attention by family and friends. What is not to like about that? As far as the 99/100 statistic, I would put it at 100% at pleasing parents.

I agree with Dawkins: it's emotional (and intellectual) child abuse.

I disagree; there is nothing wrong with incorporating a non-threatening rite of passage, such as baptism as part of a religious upbringing. It is tradition, not child abuse.

It's an extra party for a child on their 8th birthday. How can that be considered child abuse?

I think that if baptism is presented in a positive way, there is nothing wrong with it.

Now, that being said, I will say that people who give talks at a child's baptism about how their sins are now washed away are idiots. They don't really know the gospel that well. Children and adults are baptized for different reasons.

Children are baptized as part of the tradition of spiritual covenants in the Lord's Church.

Adults are baptized to be cleansed of prior sin, as well as fulfilling the covenant.

A child is sinless.

[_Themis]

At what age should parents allow their children to join Scientology? Jehovah Witnesses? The FLDS? Or any other religion or cult?

LDS parents only agree with the eight year old directive because it is THEIR choice for their child.

Personally, if I had to do it over I would say, eighteen.

~td~

None of these religious ceremonies are binding on children or really even adults, so it doesn't bother me. Being baptized at 8 is not really that different then being baptized as an infant. Both will still be able to grow up and choose for themselves. Unless you grew up Muslim in a Muslim country, but fortunately most other religions don't try to enforce their beliefs on others to that extent. Some may go to far though.

[_Some Schmo]

If they actually had a real say in it, most of them would not, and the ones who would 99 times out of 100 would be doing it just to please their parents.

Why do you think they would not? They get a special day in addition to their birthday where they are the 100% focus of positive attention by family and friends. What is not to like about that? As far as the 99/100 statistic, I would put it at 100% at pleasing parents.

I should have said, "If they actually had a real say in it, most of them would not assuming the only reason to do it was to join a church." When you add in making it a special occasion, it's not really about the baptism any more, is it? I can get my 9 year old to go pretty much anywhere or do anything if there's cake involved.

I agree with Dawkins: it's emotional (and intellectual) child abuse.

I disagree; there is nothing wrong with incorporating a non-threatening rite of passage, such as baptism as part of a religious upbringing. It is tradition, not child abuse.

Traditions and abuse are not mutually exclusive. What about female circumcision? What about corporal punishment? What about family reunions?! Think of the children, for god’s sake!

Hell, it seems the Catholic Church has a long tradition of sexual abuse! (That one's a joke, in case anyone's not paying attention).

It's an extra party for a child on their 8th birthday. How can that be considered child abuse?

It's not the party that's abusive, it's the foisting of your own unverified, unverifiable beliefs on a child, imposing all the trappings and annoying baggage that comes along with being the member of a religion (especially an authoritarian one like Mormonism). It's a behavior which communicates to your child, "You need to believe what I believe. You don't need to think critically. You don't get to think for yourself, in fact." It's most definitely long term intellectual and emotional abuse. You may as well chop off their frontal lobe.

I think that if baptism is presented in a positive way, there is nothing wrong with it.

That's a pretty big 'if'. The only way that it can be presented positively is if it's presented as a meaningless ritual that doesn't have any basis in reality except as an initiation process to joining a particular social club. I'd be incredibly surprised if it's ever been presented to a child in this way.