Are 8-yr olds able to decide to be baptized?

[_Yoda]

I can get my 9 year old to go pretty much anywhere or do anything if there's cake involved.

Hey, I'll more than likely go to an event for the right kind of cake! LOL

Traditions and abuse are not mutually exclusive. What about female circumcision? What about corporal punishment?

Please reread my post. I specifically stated "non-threatening". I'm aware that traditions and abuse are not mutually exclusive. You aren't REALLY comparing baptism with female circumcision, are you?

We can both play the absurd game, if you want to. Are you saying that every parent that allows their child to be baptized into a Church should be convicted of child abuse?

It's not the party that's abusive, it's the foisting of your own unverified, unverifiable beliefs on a child, imposing all the trappings and annoying baggage that comes along with being the member of a religion (especially an authoritarian one like Mormonism). It's a behavior which communicates to your child, "You need to believe what I believe. You don't need to think critically. You don't get to think for yourself, in fact." It's most definitely long term intellectual and emotional abuse. You may as well chop off their frontal lobe.

Why does this necessarily have to be the message of baptism? Why can't the message be, "We are welcoming you into a custom of your family's faith. You are special. We love you. Enjoy your special day."

As Themis pointed out:

None of these religious ceremonies are binding on children or really even adults, so it doesn't bother me. Being baptized at 8 is not really that different then being baptized as an infant. Both will still be able to grow up and choose for themselves.

Neither of my girls were "emotionally damaged" for being baptized. They have always managed to think for themselves just fine.

[_MrStakhanovite]

It's not the party that's abusive, it's the foisting of your own unverified, unverifiable beliefs on a child, imposing all the trappings and annoying baggage that comes along with being the member of a religion (especially an authoritarian one like Mormonism). It's a behavior which communicates to your child, "You need to believe what I believe. You don't need to think critically. You don't get to think for yourself, in fact." It's most definitely long term intellectual and emotional abuse. You may as well chop off their frontal lobe.

How does one go about not teaching unverified beliefs to children? I grew up hating baseball teams like the Braves/Yankees/Red Sox because my Dad did. I spent my entire highschool life as a young Republican because my Mom and Dad always listened to talk radio when we were in the car. Dad didn't sit me down and teach me these things, I learned them because I watched him and wanted to be like him.

How does an LDS parent hide their entire lifestyle from their child? Leave a 6 year old home alone whilst they go to church? Or just stop going to Church once they have children? I didn't shed the habits I learned from my parents because I stepped into the light of reason, but because I grew up and formed my own habits and beliefs. Being raised in a religious household doesn't condem a person to a lifetime of unreflective and mindnumbing existence.

[_Some Schmo]

Please reread my post. I specifically stated "non-threatening". I'm aware that traditions and abuse are not mutually exclusive. You aren't REALLY comparing baptism with female circumcision, are you?

I'm not saying it's as bad. But then, I wouldn't say emotional abuse is as bad as physical abuse, either. Does that mean I should condone all forms of emotional abuse?

We can both play the absurd game, if you want to. Are you saying that every parent that allows their child to be baptized into a Church should be convicted of child abuse?

What should be done to parents that are emotionally abusive to their kids?

I think all parents are emotionally abusive to their kids at times. It's part of growing up and being a parent; part of being human and making mistakes. Should they all be convicted? Of course not.

Good parents, however, try to become aware of what they're doing and avoid things that are abusive, especially when they serve no real practical purpose.

Why does this necessarily have to be the message of baptism? Why can't the message be, "We are welcoming you into a custom of your family's faith. You are special. We love you. Enjoy your special day."

Well, I said in my post something to that effect. But when is it ever really presented that way without all the other baggage that comes with it?

[_Some Schmo]

How does one go about not teaching unverified beliefs to children?

By not explicitly teaching them unverified beliefs.

I grew up hating baseball teams like the Braves/Yankees/Red Sox because my Dad did. I spent my entire highschool life as a young Republican because my Mom and Dad always listened to talk radio when we were in the car. Dad didn't sit me down and teach me these things, I learned them because I watched him and wanted to be like him.

I hear ya, but that's not really what I was talking about. I'm talking about the things we choose to tell our children.

Yes, kids are going to learn far more from you by watching you then by hearing what you tell them. Best try to be as good a rational person as you can be.

How does an LDS parent hide their entire lifestyle from their child? Leave a 6 year old home alone whilst they go to church? Or just stop going to Church once they have children? I didn't shed the habits I learned from my parents because I stepped into the light of reason, but because I grew up and formed my own habits and beliefs. Being raised in a religious household doesn't condem a person to a lifetime of unreflective and mindnumbing existence.

No, not for everyone, but it does screw a lot of people over who never do get taught to think for themselves. You're one of the lucky ones. Me too, I guess. A couple of my siblings weren't so lucky.

Not every child who gets tortured or the crap beat out of them regularly turns out to be a serial killer. I believe the majority don't. Should we therefore say, "Oh, what the hell. Go for it! Let's see how far you can go without actually killing them!"

[_MrStakhanovite]

By not explicitly teaching them unverified beliefs.

But we all have unverified beliefs somewhere in our belief systems. I like the verification principle, but it doesn't and can't apply to everything.

Yes, kids are going to learn far more from you by watching you then by hearing what you tell them. Best try to be as good a rational person as you can be.

But we aren't rational beings, nor are we irrational beings. We are psychological beings. I can't imagine a parent being anyone but their true self in front of their children if they live with them day in and day out.

Not every child who gets tortured or the crap beat out of them regularly turns out to be a serial killer. I believe the majority don't. Should we therefore say, "Oh, what the hell. Go for it! Let's see how far you can go without actually killing them!"

I'm with you there. If Mormons were cutting up female sex organs at the age of 10 because of D&C, I'd be all about forceing that practice out of existence. You can strongly qualify the statement, "Female circumscion brings harm to females." How do you verify that being raised in a LDS setting is somehow harmful to a person in (almost)every case (like cutting up genitiles)?

I just don't see how, " WHY ME WAS MY DAD AND HE TAUGHT ME THERE WAS A GLOBAL FLOOD!!!" turns into

[_Some Schmo]

But we all have unverified beliefs somewhere in our belief systems. I like the verification principle, but it doesn't and can't apply to everything.

True. And I think it's necessary to be comfortable with the comment, "I don't know."

I'm sure I have unverified beliefs, but when confronted with them consciously, it's really easy for me to say, "You know what? I don't know."

But we aren't rational beings, nor are we irrational beings. We are psychological beings. I can't imagine a parent being anyone but their true self in front of their children if they live with them day in and day out.

Some people are rational; some aren't. Some value rationality; some don't. If a parent strives for it, they'll be that way. I'd prefer it if only people who were rational were parents and their kids saw their true rational self, but we can't all have what we want. That doesn't mean there isn't an ideal.

How do you verify that being raised in a LDS setting is somehow harmful to a person in (almost)every case (like cutting up genitiles)?

I just don't see how, " WHY ME WAS MY DAD AND HE TAUGHT ME THERE WAS A GLOBAL FLOOD!!!" turns into

Well, I'm not claiming that being raised in a LDS setting is somehow harmful to a person in almost every case. In fact, I've intimated that abuse doesn't predict future behavior (as with the case of serial killers).

But I have personal experience with ways that the church's teachings can really screw a person over long into adulthood. They didn't screw me over in the same way they screwed others, but that doesn't excuse teaching destructive stuff.

[_moksha]

Wonder if choosing the number eight had something to do with the Jewish practice of circumcision on the eighth day of life.

[_zeezrom]

Wonder if choosing the number eight had something to do with the Jewish practice of circumcision on the eighth day of life.

I was actually thinking it was symbolic of Moroni Chapter 8

[_moksha]

Wonder if choosing the number eight had something to do with the Jewish practice of circumcision on the eighth day of life.

I was actually thinking it was symbolic of Moroni Chapter 8

Interesting thought, choosing that age from the number of the chapter in which the question of infant baptism, which had been a controversy within Protestant thought, was answered. For instance, the Campbellites taught the necessity of baptism by full immersion as being necessary for salvation, but I believe they waited till adulthood.

[_Jersey Girl]

Question for you, why me.

Is it right or wrong to lie?

Lie about what?

About anything.