So, Dr. Shades, Schryver was just making it up all along?

[_Darth J]

I hope this doesn't threadjack, but this whole Book of Abraham hunt for unicorns is 100% about protecting the organization at all costs.

I am aware that most people who leave the LDS Church or were never in it conclude that if Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham, he must have made up everything. That is a reasonable inference, but it is not a necessary inference.

The Community of Christ/RLDS believes in Joseph Smith as a prophet but does not believe in the BoA---in fact, they don't require you to believe in the historicity of The Book of Mormon, either.

However, the LDS Church canonized the Book of Abraham about 50 years after it was written, and that stuck the Church's neck out. If the Book of Abraham is something Joseph Smith made up, despite his consistently saying that it was a translation of Abraham's ancient writings, then the LDS Church has leaders who are not inspired to know which scriptures in its canon are "true."

Will's explanation he's talked about on MADB that the Book of Abraham is some kind of literary medicine bundle that helps him go on a vision quest throws Joseph Smith under the bus for the sake of finding some plausible way of how, in some metaphysical sense, the Book of Abraham could still be "true" does nothing except trying to avoid some way of saying that the leadership of the LDS Church isn't inspired. Except that he HAS explicitly said that, too, since he has said that at least one of the Facsimiles shouldn't be there and he won't be surprised to see it taken out.

All they would have to say is, look. Joseph Smith had inspired ideas about theology he was trying to express. He thought he could translate Egyptian and was wrong, but he was using it to try to explain the theological ideas that he had. Not everything has to be literally, historically true for the religious concepts within to be true.

But that will never, ever, ever happen. Because it's all about the corporation at all costs.

[_harmony]

Libraries are full of books about nonsense by people who don't know much. Will's book will not be lonely (if he ever finishes it).

FAIR's desperation grows more apparent every day. I do hope someone records the conference... or at least sends Juliann in to make a transcript.

[_Dwight Frye]

Not to derail, but has anyone heard anything lately about the status of Brent's Book of Abraham book? I've been waiting for this thing for years.

[_Darth J]

Not to derail, but has anyone heard anything lately about the status of Brent's Book of Abraham book? I've been waiting for this thing for years.

You know it has been preemptively blown out of the water by Will's great white whale.

I mean magnum opus.

[_William Schryver]

Shades:

You might have digital files, but being allowed to be in the same room with the originals? Forgive me if I have a very hard time swallowing that one.

I don’t think you’ve thought this through very well. What constitutes the greater privilege? Obtaining the JSP/KEP images, which, once in one’s possession will necessarily ALWAYS be in one’s possession? Or getting the chance to, for a few hours, examine the originals from which the images were produced? After all, even Chris Smith was able to receive permission to examine the papyri for a couple hours, notwithstanding the fact that they knew he was a critic of the church. I guaran-damn-tee you he could never obtain the digital images of the JSP/KEP.

In any case, your continuing to call me a bald-faced liar is well noted (along with the other string of adjectives you have employed in the past and in your post above). Should you ever run into me in person, I guess you’d better hope I’m a “forgive and forget Christian,” huh? Otherwise you might find yourself having a knuckle sandwich for lunch.

Alas, my pity for your abject ignorance will no doubt override any offense I might feel on account of the blind invective you have directed my way. Besides, from those who have met you previously, I understand that you are just a very little man struggling to keep from feeling overwhelmed by the big, bad world in which you live. So I suppose I’ll cut you some slack.
.
.
.
Cracker Graham:

In early 2006 my frustration with Book of Abraham apologetics, along with my subsequent apostasy, prompted a major revolution from the apologists.

Oh, my!

This is hilarious. Beyond hilarious. Wow!

Yeah, that’s right, Graham. Your apostasy “prompted a major revolution from the apologists.” LOL! You are more delusional than ever.

FAIR recruited Brian Hauglid to take a stab at the situation and had him do a presentation in August 2006, just a month or so after he was give access to the documents.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, as per usual.

Brian Hauglid had already obtained the high-res images of the KEP long before your apostasy was apparent. He sought and received permission to do a study of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers back in 2005.

… Will likes to talk as if the critics are at a disadvantage with "inferior" quality photos.

To the contrary, as my posting record will clearly attest, I have consistently, as in always, made it clear that, in my judgment, the photos Metcalfe has are very high quality. That said, the digital scans are superior to the photos in every appreciable way: the color balance, the exposure, the brightness/contrast ratio, and most of all, the capacity for digital magnification. They are 600 dpi uncompressed tagged image format (.tif) files. I could take them up to Kinko’s and print out super-sharp 4’ x 7’ poster-sized pages.

Not only that, but there are also multi-spectral images of the KEP that can be accessed in order to help determine extremely difficult readings where there is overwriting and erasures, and whatnot.

Will used to post some photos of the KEP whenever Brian gave him permission to do so, and they were usually in black and white.

You don’t know what you’re talking about … again. I have never required nor sought Brian Hauglid’s permission for anything I have posted online, and I was the one who made the decision to intentionally desaturate the color from the snippets I did post.

I suspect he has a collection, but not the full collection in his possession.

You don’t know what you’re talking about … again. In fact, I’ve never known anyone who so frequently and effortlessly makes public statements on questions about which he is entirely unburdened with any knowledge whatsoever.

No wonder your apostasy “prompted a major revolution from the apologists.” Right? LOL! (again)
.
.
.
Dearth J:

/snip/

dissonance:

/snip/

In the immortal words of Ulysses Everett McGill: "Well ain't you two just dumber'n a bag a hammers."
.
.
.
And, on that note, I bid you all adieu for the day. I'm pretty much disgusted with myself for yielding to the temptation to reply to your idiocy, but I will at least attempt to limit myself to no more than one post a day. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I see that this was Nomad's doing. I'll bet he's laughing at me right this minute. He's going to pay ...

[_thews]

I guaran-damn-tee you he could never obtain the digital images of the JSP/KEP.

Why are the images of what we all know to exist hidden? Why does the LDS church hide these documents from its members? What is it the LDS church is hiding from us Will?

[_Gadianton]

Should you ever run into me in person, I guess you’d better hope I’m a “forgive and forget Christian,” huh? Otherwise you might find yourself having a knuckle sandwich for lunch.

I would advise Dr. Shades to take this threat of violence very seriously. I know he has specific training to protect himself against these types, but nonetheless he should exercise caution.

Besides, from those who have met you previously, I understand that you are just a very little man struggling.

I think we have to assume you are talking about apologists, Will. Can you identify them? What apologists have been saying these things about Dr. Shades behind his back? Also, are they encouraging you to physically assault Dr. Shades?

[_Some Schmo]

It's a good thing Will believes all his BS. Nobody else does.

Ya gotta love the tough-guy act, huh? "Knuckle sandwich for lunch"? Did Will just step out of an Archie comic?

Oooo... you're scaring me, Richie!

[_Kevin Graham]

Yeah, that’s right, Graham. Your apostasy “prompted a major revolution from the apologists.” LOL! You are more delusional than ever.

That's because you were just an infant during that time. A nobody who wasn't aware of the previous five years of lobbying I had engaged with FAIR over the subject.

Where were you during Mormonism 201? Stop acting like you have any knowledge of the situation before you arrived onto the scene years later. I had my sources, could see what was still being posted on the FAIR e-list, etc. This was long before you popped onto the scene with your complete lack of knowledge of anything to do with Book of Abraham apologetics.

Brian Hauglid used my posts at FAIR as a template for his entire presentation, indirectly citing me no less than four times, although he refused to acknolwedge my name for obvious reasons.

Brian Hauglid had already obtained the high-res images of the KEP long before your apostasy was apparent. He sought and received permission to do a study of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers back in 2005.

So what you are saying is that when Brian Hauglid came into the forum posting as "Al Ghazali" and said he was new to the subject and want to understand what was going on, he was lying to us all? One of you has to be lying then.

To the contrary, as my posting record will clearly attest, I have consistently, as in always, made it clear that, in my judgment, the photos Metcalfe has are very high quality.

Except in your last post when you didn't even acknowledge he had photos. Instead you only point out the existence of "hi-res" photos and then note how you and your clan of pseudo scholars are the only ones with copies. It is deceptive however you slice it.

That said, the digital scans are superior to the photos in every appreciable way: the color balance, the exposure, the brightness/contrast ratio, and most of all, the capacity for digital magnification. They are 600 dpi uncompressed tagged image format (.tif) files. I could take them up to Kinko’s and print out super-sharp 4’ x 7’ poster-sized pages.

Sadly for you, we don't need giant posters to be able to analyze the material and draw reasonable conclusions. This is like comparing a 10mb scan of an image with one that is 60mb. Do you have any friggin idea how detailked a 10MB scan is? Sure, technically the technology has improved over the years, but the quality of Brents photos far surpass what is needed to establish his arguments and to this day neither you nor Hauglid have refuted anything he has argued based on the hi-res photos. This is just the usual smoke and mirrors.

Not only that, but there are also multi-spectral images of the KEP that can be accessed in order to help determine extremely difficult readings where there is overwriting and erasures, and whatnot.

Sure there are Will. Untiil you can show how this is in any way relevant to proving your pet theories, then this is just pointless window dressing.

You don’t know what you’re talking about … again. In fact, I’ve never known anyone who so frequently and effortlessly makes public statements on questions about which he is entirely unburdened with any knowledge whatsoever.

Will, the only time you choose to respond to me are with meaningless "no it isn't" responses. When will you ever respond to the numerous lies I have caught you in? Do you know what the word "suspect" means? I said I suspect you don't have a full collection of the KEP in your possession. Remember, you guys have a habit of exagerrating. Shortly after Hauglid's FAIR presentation I was informed by you idiots that he presented the entire collection, and trying to pry the truth out of Hauglid about this took several days of questioning. Turns out he only provided a tiny fraction of it.

I suspect it is possible you have a full collection, but the main reason I doubt it is because I guess I still have some respect for the Church. I can't imagine why they'd hand them over to the biggest ass-clown who had a documented track record of lies. Seriously, this isn't hyperbole. You're a liar. A compulsive one. And this will only damage the Church if you become a more visible figure in the overall scheme of things because the higher they elevate you, the harder you willl fall when your history is released in a published response to your nonsense. And the Church will suffer that blow as well. I mean can't the Church find ANYONE with integrity to cover these issues? Nibley was proven to be a liar, Hauglid as well, Gee worst of all, and now their new pupil whose atrocious online posting history is enough to embarrass virtually any organization.

You can ridicule my apostasy all you want, but the timeline is indisputable. FAIR didn't want to touch the matter with a ten foot pole, even during my Mormonism 201 project. John Gee in 2000 couldn't get access to the KEP. There was simply no one who knew much about the topic. My concerns were met with advisement to just pray and have faith. This went on for several years until it became obvious that knowing Joseph Smith could not translate ancient documents started damaging my testimony. When people at the FAIR boards who had respected me and my apologetics for the previous 5-7 years started to show signs of concern as well, the powers that be realized at that point that they needed to start doing their own lobbying for apologetic help on the matter before more and more people started falling away. So when it became clear that I was no longer offering apologetic services on the message board, and that I came down on the critical side of the Book of Abraham, the first thing they had to do was ban me. This was obvious because they can't tolerate someone they can't dismiss as an anti-Mormon, and selling that line to people who knew me for years was impossible. I was still someone who had quite a bit of influencial weight over there, so they got rid of me the first chance they got and even mentioning my name over there will result in a thread being closed. Who else can boast of that honor? That is how scared they are of me.

Scared why? Because I made their new shining scholar look foolish. For simply pointing out the obvious fact that Brian Hauglid was not responding to my questions. I asked him specific questions about how the evidence contrary to a "copying" theory could in any way work in that model. He could never answer. And even though you called Metcalfe and Vogell "nutjobs" and other names throughout your tenure, I was the one who was banned simply because I said Hauglid had fabricated his defense with nothing to base it on.

I have copies of ALL the early debates, so go ahead and accuse me of lying. You have no credibility anyway, we all know this. So you really have nothing left to lose by lying.

[_Kevin Graham]

I would advise Dr. Shades to take this threat of violence very seriously. I know he has specific training to protect himself against these types, but nonetheless he should exercise caution.

Just because Will looks like Chuck Norris doesn't mean he can fight like him.