Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _Jason Bourne »


Not angyr, I just have a better perspective of things now.


I think you and I have reached similar conclusions about things that we used to defend. And there is a lot about LDS Inc. that bugs me too. I think our perspectives are similar. But I just don't see sinister motives or a drive for profits behind everything the LDS Church does.



It suggests an ulterior motive.


Yes it can and perhaps it should be better left off. Still, it does not mean good intent is totally destroyed by it.


And let's not forget that when Mormons go to places where natural disasters hit, they first find their way to help other members of the Church.



I am not sure this is always the case. The Church even helps out in disaster areas where they are few if any LDS. They were on site in China and in Pakistan few years back when earthquakes hit those areas.

Charity should be blind and without any motive of making money out of it.


How does the Church make money out of sending its spearhead disaster aid units to any are of the world?

But the Church is essentially a corporate structure run by businessmen, and they will run it the same as Coca-Cola or Delta. All corporations have one goal, and that is to ensure their prosperity via the accumulation of wealth and a healthy public image.


Most Church's today are large organizations that need to function with business acumen to survive and prosper in the world we live. Of course that does not mean they should be ruthless about it and yes there are at times elements of that in the LDS corporation. I have seen it particularly with people I know who work for the Church.


When I was on my mission the Church treated baptisms like a commodity, and we were to get as many as we could, at all costs. Keeping them active was someone's else's job. But only after 5-10 years did the corporate leaders begin to look at the charts in the boardroom and realize their efforts have been counter-productive, and that it takes much more than simply baptizing a bunch of people and expecting them to develop into faithful, prosperous tithe payers.


Yes I was told to baptize, baptize, baptize as well. And I saw us lose a lot. But do you really think when Pres. Hinckley started pushing retention hard and even outlined three things a new convert needed-a friend, a calling and nurturing with the scriptures he really did not care at all about the well being of the new member?

And you think all the disaster assistance the Church gives world wide is for PR only? Come on dude.


No, not all of it. But I think it is interesting that in times of urgency, they find time to quickly print off T-shirts to make every halping hand a walking advertisement for the Church.



T Shirts are not always worn. Just at times. And likely they have these in stock.

Most Christians at least initially or till they move on to greater faith, are motivated by the idea of reward vs. punishment. I think most LDS who do good things for other also are rather happy to do so and don't do it just for some greedy reward.


I used to think that way too. But my perspective changed after further reflection. I am sure I am wrong in some instances, but the overall doctrine is based on the idea that doing charity reaps spiritual rewards for yourself. How many times have Mormons done charity, and responded to a thank you with something like, "Oh don't thank me, I need the blessings"? The recent debates I had with Mormons over the issue of welfare, helped changed my persspective too.


Yes but that is just to say because often we do not want thanks for doing a good deed.

Mormons will gladly give to the poor when the Church is involved in some project, and then turn around and call the government assistance for the poor, an act of communism led by Satan. So for them God is only interested in providing to the poor inasmuch as faithful members exercise "free agency" in engaging in chaaritable acts. Anything else is Satanic, even if it means more poor people are provided for. So God put poor people on the earth just so the more fortunate members can be tested to see if they will obey voluntarily, and be rewarded with blessings as a result.


You must know a lot of BC and Droopy types. I don't see this all that much.

And you contradict yourself above with what you say about Russian missions. Who much revenue is generated from conversions in Nigeria?

How is it a contradiction? Neither Russia nor Nigeria provide much revenue from tithes, but congregations in Africa experience much healthier activity rates.


My point was that you stated that missions were closed because they were not productive and missionaries were sent to more productive albeit poorer areas of the world. Those missions likely reap little ROI either. So if tithing revenue rather than actually converting and saving souls were the motive this would make no sense.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _Jason Bourne »

truth dancer wrote:Here is the bottom line for me:

It is really difficult to imagine, the God of the entire universe, the one who made everything that exists, seeing (feeling?), the pain and suffering that exists in this world, is telling a guy here in SLC to spend four billion dollars to build a shopping mall.

I guess it is possible, if God also told Moses and Joshua to slaughter babies and children but it just doesn't seem possible given my personal experience with holiness.

NOT THAT I AM RIGHT. I'm not in any way suggesting I know God or what is right or wrong or good or anything along those lines.

It is just that when I think of Jesus and his message, promoting shopping, investing in malls, and using his church to gain wealth just seems rather odd.

~td~



I am not a big fan of the mall. But let me ask you a question. If a Church is to have resources to run its operations including assisting those in need, where will it generate the revenue?

The answer is is comes from donations. And if those donations dry up because members are tight on cash where does it come from?
_asbestosman
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _asbestosman »

Jason Bourne wrote:And if those donations dry up because members are tight on cash where does it come from?
Cash inside of a fish's mouth?
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_zeezrom
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _zeezrom »

Jason Bourne wrote: And if those donations dry up because members are tight on cash where does it come from?

businesses and governments

Some of the institutions I see get most of their funding from local businesses.

So the next question is, What is wrong with the church being a business?

My answer is that religion is not a business.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Copy/paste of a response I gave on another thread:

It depends on how the church has financed this. I seriously doubt that they will pay 3 billion in up front costs. If the church does this like normal people/companies do this, they will probably lay down somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-100 million up front. The rest will be financed. Then the incomes from rents and whatever else that will be there will pay for the financing and if successful the church will recoup the initial investment as well plus profit. What I am getting at is that out of pocket expenses will not be anywhere 3 billion dollars.

The real risk will come if this whole thing is a financial flop. Then the church will get stuck holding the tab and will have to fork out gobs of money to cover the financing.

Now, having said that, I still don't see why they did this, and I have no idea what justification is used for the church to be in the real estate development business. It could be justified if this was viewed as a cash producing endowment of sorts, like major universities and other churches have. But, most other organizations are more transparent about this stuff. There really is no way to know what is going on because the church is so opaque with its finances.


The bottom line is that the church probably doesn't have 2-4 billion in liquid assets, so they can't go spending this on something else. I'm not justifying the decision to build the mall (I don't think they should be in the real estate business). But, you can't just shift the money around because it isn't there.
_Darth J
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _Darth J »

As long as we're talking about money:

In the U.K., the Church is required to disclose financial information.

In 2008, the Church's income for welfare was £3,249,000.

Its spending was £1,172,000.

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Sh ... ryNumber=0

In 2008, the Church's income "to promote the Church's religious and charitable work" in the U.K. was Income £33,431,000. Its spending was £33,458,000. http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Sh ... ryNumber=0

Note that while this makes it appear that the Church is going in the hole by £27,000, where did the other £2,077,000 go?

The Church also owns about 12 times as much real estate in Florida as Disney. http://latterdaymainstreet.com/?p=694

And the Church, at least at one point, was calling people on missions to operate the Church's hunting preserve in Utah. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7705 ... flock.html

The Church also praised members for selling the fillings from their teeth to raise money for a temple.
http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/portoalegre/

The Family Home Evening resource manual published by the Church tells parents to teach their kids, "Point out that you pay tithing first, and then you pay a portion of what you owe on each other bill. Talk about which areas you might be able to cut expenses in so that you can live within your budget. Paying the Lord first ensures his help and blessings in being able to budget the rest of your money successfully."
http://www.lds.org/hf/library/0,16866,4 ... ithing.htm

Or you could look at how Mormons in Utah are doing as far as donating to charities that are not the Church. http://www.beliefnet.com/Love-Family/Ch ... y.aspx?p=2

TIME magazine in 1997:

With unusual cooperation from the Latter-day Saints hierarchy (which provided some financial figures and a rare look at church businesses), TIME has been able to quantify the church's extraordinary financial vibrancy. Its current assets total a minimum of $30 billion. If it were a corporation, its estimated $5.9 billion in annual gross income would place it midway through the FORTUNE 500, a little below Union Carbide and the Paine Webber Group but bigger than Nike and the Gap.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html

Continuing from TIME (and remember, this is 1997):

Last year $5.2 billion in tithes flowed into Salt Lake City, $4.9 billion of which came from American Mormons. By contrast, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, with a comparable U.S. membership, receives $1.7 billion a year in contributions. So great is the tithe flow that scholars have suggested it constitutes practically the intermountain states' only local counterbalance in an economy otherwise dominated by capital from the East and West coasts.

The true Mormon difference, however, lies in what the LDS church does with that money. Most denominations spend on staff, charity and the building and maintenance of churches; leaders will invest a certain amount--in the case of the Evangelical Lutherans, $152 million--as a pension fund, usually through mutual funds or a conservative stock portfolio. The philosophy is minimalist, as Lutheran pastor Mark Moller-Gunderson explains: "Our stewardship is not such that we grow the church through business ventures."


The Mormons are stewards of a different stripe. Their charitable spending and temple building are prodigious. But where other churches spend most of what they receive in a given year, the Latter-day Saints employ vast amounts of money in investments that TIME estimates to be at least $6 billion strong. Even more unusual, most of this money is not in bonds or stock in other peoples' companies but is invested directly in church-owned, for-profit concerns, the largest of which are in agribusiness, media, insurance, travel and real estate. Deseret Management Corp., the company through which the church holds almost all its commercial assets, is one of the largest owners of farm- and ranchland in the country, including 49 for-profit parcels in addition to the Deseret Ranch. Besides the Bonneville International chain and Beneficial Life, the church owns a 52% holding in ZCMI, Utah's largest department-store chain. (For a more complete list, see chart.) All told, TIME estimates that the Latter-day Saints farmland and financial investments total some $11 billion, and that the church's nontithe income from its investments exceeds $600 million.
_zeezrom
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _zeezrom »

Aristotle Smith wrote:The bottom line is that the church probably doesn't have 2-4 billion in liquid assets,

How did you come to that conclusion?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_asbestosman
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _asbestosman »

Aristotle Smith wrote:The bottom line is that the church probably doesn't have 2-4 billion in liquid assets, so they can't go spending this on something else. I'm not justifying the decision to build the mall (I don't think they should be in the real estate business). But, you can't just shift the money around because it isn't there.

I think your comments are fair. I just wanted to point out that the church also has an interest in keeping that area nice because it isn near Temple Square. Thus I think an interest in that particular piece of real estate was understandable. Now, should it have been used for a shopping mall? I'm no real estate guru, but I think something else would have been better given that the other project was failing. I also think from PR perspective it would have been more prudent to build something else (school, hospital, library, LDS museeum, etc.). Some of those things could even make money, but do so in a more socially acceptable manner.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _Kevin Graham »

The Mormons are stewards of a different stripe. Their charitable spending and temple building are prodigious. But where other churches spend most of what they receive in a given year, the Latter-day Saints employ vast amounts of money in investments that TIME estimates to be at least $6 billion strong. Even more unusual, most of this money is not in bonds or stock in other peoples' companies but is invested directly in church-owned, for-profit concerns, the largest of which are in agribusiness, media, insurance, travel and real estate. Deseret Management Corp., the company through which the church holds almost all its commercial assets, is one of the largest owners of farm- and ranchland in the country, including 49 for-profit parcels in addition to the Deseret Ranch. Besides the Bonneville International chain and Beneficial Life, the church owns a 52% holding in ZCMI, Utah's largest department-store chain. (For a more complete list, see chart.) All told, TIME estimates that the Latter-day Saints farmland and financial investments total some $11 billion, and that the church's nontithe income from its investments exceeds $600 million.


And this was 13 years ago! So it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out the Church rakes in $10-15 billion in tithes annually and another $2-3 billion in nontithe income.

Yet according to their own press release, the Church has donated money to Humanitarian causes, only $325 million since 1985. That is an average of only $13 million a year, which seems like a lot until you get the full context of just how much the Church rakes in annually. This is barely a fraction. Put it this way, they spent ten times more on a silly shopping mall in one year than they have in charity over the past three decades!
_Darth J
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Re: Spend the $2-4 Billion on this instead of a shopping center

Post by _Darth J »

Kevin Graham wrote:Put it this way, they spent ten times more on a silly shopping mall in one year than they have in charity over the past three decades!


City Creek Center is not a "silly" shopping mall.

It's going to have a retractable glass roof, you know.

http://www.downtownrising.com/city_cree ... view=view3

Here, you can take the conceptual tour!

http://www.downtownrising.com/city_creek/index.php
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