Joseph's Laced Wine

[_Willy Law]

Do any of you have any information regarding entheogens being used in early American religion? I have tried searching it out but can only seem to find references to native American use.
You cannot tell me that entheogens were not being used by the revivals.

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[_Jeneum]

Like Amulek of old, I have another who testifies of these things. Can you withstand the testimony of two? LOL!

Thanks for your input and welcome. I would say I blame entheogens for my interest and pursuit of spirituality. I had a passing casual interest before, but when the "veil" was lifted and I could sense the other world and know that it is real, my fascination with the subject hasn't ceased. That is why I became a TBM, because of entheogenic experiences, and that is why I left the church as well. The medicine lead me in and then it lead me out. I needed to be a TBM for a while in order to learn what I have learned. I couldn't have gained that knowledge any other way.

Although the Native American Church does not proselyte, if you respect the medicine and show sincere interest and come in a good way, you could probably participate in Wachuma or Peyote ceremonies. I don't like to talk to much about my church because I prefer anonymity, and if you live in the area I do and decide to come to a NAC, we might meet each other. I prefer not to meet people from the internet, no offense. However, I will say that the traditional set and setting is the ultimate and proper way to take medicine. I don't mean traditional as in a certain ritual, but I mean under the direction of a true medicine man. With the new laws that have passed, the government no longer requires your race or skin color to be native american in order to participate in ceremonies. The government has allowed all races to practice this religion, and has declared that the use of any sacramental plant is protected by federal law (not just peyote).
I like it because it is a true religion for me. It has no dogma or "truth" in that sense. It simply helps you heal your soul and discover truths for yourself with the medicine.

As for it being all in the head, just go to a ceremony and see. Experience telepathy. Experience group consciousness. Meet the spirit of the medicine. After you do that, you just might find a reason enough to consider believing something. It's easy to doubt the word of another, but different when it is your own word or own experience.

Thanks for the welcome :). Glad to have another hyperspace traveler amongst the ranks here!

Entheogens are what eventually led me out of Mormonism. I was born in the faith, had the pretty standard Mormon childhood, and went through a period between the ages of 14 and 18 where I was just completely ecstatic about the Church. I hung onto every word FARMS and FAIR published, and lived the gospel like no other person I knew. Then, when it came time to turn in my mission papers and I decided I would much rather focus on school (I knew if I left for 2 years I wouldn't go back to school upon returning) the shunning began. I was a healthy, able-bodied young man and I dare go against the wishes of everybody else in the Church? I still haven't heard the end of people's disapproval for that period in my life.

Then I ate 6 grams of mushrooms in the mountains one night with a close friend of mine, and became completely detached from this reality. I knew, like I've never known anything in my life, that I needed to be in a community of loving people, rather than those who will look down upon you for choosing education over a mission, or kissing a girl before you turn 16, or not reading the scriptures enough. I felt connected to the earth for the first time in my life. I felt like I was more than just a singular person, and that the choices I make affect more than just myself. That was the beginning of my psychedelic usage.

Each experience after that has truly been one of "line upon line, precept upon precept." These medicines seem to be pretty smart in that when they are trying to teach you something, or show you something, they will not let up. Especially ayahuasca. They will show you what aspects of your life you are not living right, and force you to change them. If you haven't changed them before your next trip, you can guarantee it will come up again.

So, much like you Ezias, entheogens have aided me in my spiritual development much more than Mormonism ever could. I do not regret my time within Mormonism. Hell, I would go back if there were some changes to the way things are done and if intellectual freedom was actually allowed and encouraged. But the power that flows through me while taking some of the earth's medicine is unlike anything else I've ever experienced, and it forces me to want to make myself better, as well as taking on the task of making the world and those around me better. If people get that from Mormonism then amen, keep on keepin on. I did not. Now that I do get it, I can't even imagine living life without it.

Sorry for the off topic rants OP :D

[_harmony]

This doesn't explain the visions I've had as I wasn't drunk or taking any form of hallucinogenic.

hold up.

You had visions?

Oh, dear. Here we go again.... *getting out the candied popcorn and Diet Pepsi*

[_harmony]

However, I will say that the traditional set and setting is the ultimate and proper way to take medicine. I don't mean traditional as in a certain ritual, but I mean under the direction of a true medicine man.

I have been in the circle often, due to some extraordinary circumstances that allowed me to participate. A most amazing experience on many levels.

I prefer the use of smoke from sweet grass and herbs. I find it soothing and a useful pain killer for my joint pain.

Edit to add: while I attended a Native event this weekend, I was given a necklace of corn with the instructions to wear it often, as its medicine was strong. I wore it on Monday to a meeting where I desperately needed strong medicine. The results of the meeting were completely satisfactory.

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[_Willy Law]

Thanks for all the experiences.
So Ezias, Harmony, and Jeneum; based on your experience with entheogens and your reading of the common visions of the early church (kirtland temple dedication, Book of Mormon witness testimony etc,) where do you put the probability that entheogens of some kind were either taken willfully or placed in sacramental wine or in anointing oil?

[_Jeneum]

Thanks for all the experiences.
So Ezias, Harmony, and Jeneum; based on your experience with entheogens and your reading of the common visions of the early church (kirtland temple dedication, Book of Mormon witness testimony etc,) where do you put the probability that entheogens of some kind were either taken willfully or placed in sacramental wine or in anointing oil?

I would say it's only marginally likely. It seems like the two most common entheogens Joseph would have had at his disposal were the amanita muscaria mushroom, and jimson weed, or datura. Psilocybe type mushrooms do grow around the areas that Joseph grew up in/started the Church in, but identifying psilocybe mushrooms is a far more difficult art than identifying the trumpet shaped flowers of the datura plant, or the red or yellow amanita.

I say marginally because both amanita and datura are difficult entheogens to use. The resulting trips from either are usually terrifying, and in the case of datura, the proper dose line is too close to the overdose line to reliably use in a group setting without the aid of an experienced shaman. It's certainly possible that Joseph learned how to use these sacraments reliably by a shaman in the area, but I do not think it likely.

I think, in the case of the Kirtland Temple experiences, the visions brought on were from nothing more than exhaustion, sleep deprivation, and drunkenness. All three of those can pretty reliably produce visions, and the suggestibility of the people in the Temple would have been high because of that commonality between all of them. One person announced that they were having a vision, and then it just all cascaded from there. Certainly the 'Spirit' would have been very high in there.

We're absolutely devoid of any kind of tales about the Sacramental wine making people ill, and in the case of amanita and datura, it certainly would have made someone ill. I can definitely see the early Saints taking notice to this, as getting ill from the Sacrament wine could have denoted something like unworthiness, or even possession by demons. They were far and away much more magical thinking than the watered-down Saints of today tend to be.

Perhaps Ezias has a different view on this than I do. I'm very interested in seeing what he has to say :)