Peterson and Gee's libel against Ritner?

[_Doctor Scratch]

Doctor Scratch,

I am suggesting that Dr. Ritner was/is biased towards Dr. Gee's religious affiliation. I doubt it was/is anything of a personal nature.

Huh? "Biased towards"? I.e., that he favors the LDS Church, and that this bias figured into the split? Or do you mean "biased against"---i.e., that Ritner is an "anti-Mormon"?

If it's the latter, and if you mean that Ritner was "biased" against Gee trying to pawn off LDS apologetics as legitimate scholarship, then I doubt that anyone would disagree---except the apologists.

I do not disagree that Dr. Ritner was biased against Dr. Gee for what he and you perceived as "LDS apologetics."

Well, then, there you go: it's a matter of scholarly disagreement, and not "bias." (You might as well say "prejudice" or "bigotry," what with the way you're trying to employ the word "bias.")

"Disagreement" is very different from being "biased."

Being biased means that one has cause to favor a certain position. I maintain that Dr. Ritner had cause to maintain his position (stated above) because of his disagreement with aspects of Dr. Gee's scholarship.

What "cause" and what "position" do you think Ritner was "favoring"?

I think you can see the problem: claiming "bias" leaves the door wide, wide open for the characterization of Ritner as an "anti-Mormon." "Disagreement" is probably the more accurate descriptor here.

Manus manum lavat.

Meaning....what? That I'm supposed to agree that Ritner has a "bias" against Gee's beliefs? I haven't seen any evidence of that. Ritner has maintained that his disagreement was strictly with the scholarship. There is no evidence---no suggestion whatsoever---that Ritner was somehow "biased" against the LDS faith.

[_Simon Belmont]

So wait a minute. You refuse to induce from Dan's repeated comments (which I document in the first post of this thread) what he was trying to get across, but you have no problem assuming Robert Ritner, a man you know virtually nothing about, had a "bias towards" Gee? How do you explain this? And I prefer the long answer, if there is one.

I am not accusing Dr. Ritner of anything of which Dr. Gee is not also guilty. Please read my post to Doctor Scratch above.

But that's what Professor's do. They judge their student's work because they are paid to. How does this reveal a "bias towardss Gee"?

Dr. Ritner was biased against Dr. Gee's religious affiliation, not Dr. Gee personally.

Oh this has to be William Schryver. Nobody uses Latin phrases to appear intelligent more than this guy.

Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.

Yes I do [believe Dr. Gee intentionally lied], and the evidence is overwhelming. I mean when the evidence is so heavy that it compells someone like Christopher Smith to agree that a lie has been told, then that pretty much makes my case.

To what end, Kevin Graham? What does Dr. Gee have to gain by these alleged lies?

Exactly, you say "whatever" because you do not know the specifics, which means you're speaking in ignorance. This makes you especially foolish for declaring with bombastic certitude that he has vindicated himself. What a hoot! How would you even know?

Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit.

Please, just as an example, go ahead and explain to us how he "vindicated" himself from lying about the KEP in his 2001 "Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri." He manipulated the coloring of the photos to make his "two ink" argument hold water, and then when we all saw what the coloring really was, the "single" ink leapt from the pages. But at the time he didn't know the accurate photos would be released, so he felt safe in misrepresenting the data. There are other examples, but go ahead and show us where he "vindicated" himself here.

Call for references, please.

Never in dispute. Is this the part where you start bragging about his intelligence as if this has any bearing on his character?

No, this is the part where I recommend that Dr. Gee receive the same respect given to Dr. Ritner, or to anyone who has accomplished so much.

That was never the argument.

Yes, it was. harmony indicated that she believed that Yale simply "wanted to get rid of Gee" so they awarded him a doctorate.

Right now Robert Ritner is to Egyptology what President Monson is to Mormonism, and this was true when Gee was his student. If you don't believe BYU had any connections working in Gee's favor then you're deluded. BYU routinely does this with its prospective professors. Gee was the gem in their eye. A Mormon about to get his PhD from Yale! Ritner said there was pressure to get him through without fail, and I see no reason to doubt him since it dovetails perfectly well with what others have said of the BYU hiring process.

It appears that you are simply speculating on much of this. I have no doubt that Dr. Ritner is a highly influential and respected academic and Egyptologist. He is probably also a nice guy. Saying that "BYU routinely does this with professors" is where you begin speculating.

You don't even want to go there. Gee will never be a Ritner. As Ritner said, Gee is desperately trying to pad his curriculum by showing up to as many conferences as he can, increasing his presence among others in the field, but failing to increase in respectability.

Please indicate, with sources, how Dr. Gee is "failing to increase in respectability."

I mean he couldn;t even get a doctorate from the world's authority! That matters, whether you want to believe it or not. Gee will suffer the same fate Nibley did. An apologist dressed up in a lot of scholarly garb.

Dr. Gee received a doctorate from one of the world's most respected universities, Yale. Even you do not question this.

[_Doctor Scratch]

I am not accusing Dr. Ritner of anything of which Dr. Gee is not also guilty. Please read my post to Doctor Scratch above.

You're accusing both of them of harboring "bias," but obviously they're not biased against the same things, in your view. I'm curious: what is it that you think Dr. Gee was "biased against" in this case?

Dr. Ritner was biased against Dr. Gee's religious affiliation, not Dr. Gee personally.

I noticed that you've begun calling for sources. Well, where is your evidence of Ritner's "bias" against Mormonism? Ritner's own emails indicate that the only thing he was "biased" against was shoddy scholarship.

[_Simon Belmont]

You're accusing both of them of harboring "bias," but obviously they're not biased against the same things, in your view. I'm curious: what is it that you think Dr. Gee was "biased against" in this case?

He is in disagreement of Dr. Ritner's assessment of his scholarship, obviously.

I noticed that you've begun calling for sources.

Not in a vindictive manner. I simply wish to know more about this story.

Well, where is your evidence of Ritner's "bias" against Mormonism? Ritner's own emails indicate that the only thing he was "biased" against was shoddy scholarship.

I do not believe Dr. Ritner is an "anti-Mormon," but he definitely does not agree with the Book of Abraham.

It is both unprecedented and unreasonable to assume that an intrusive text about a completely different matter -- a narrative history of Abraham and his descendants -- would have been inserted into a document whose beginning, middle and end is devoted specifically to the resurrection of an Egyptian priest.

[_Doctor Scratch]

You're accusing both of them of harboring "bias," but obviously they're not biased against the same things, in your view. I'm curious: what is it that you think Dr. Gee was "biased against" in this case?

He is in disagreement of Dr. Ritner's assessment of his scholarship, obviously.

See? It's funny how your word "bias" doesn't really fit into your sentence. Why don't you try rewriting it so that you attribute "bias" to Dr. Gee? I'm curious to see you make it work.

[_moksha]

But instead, it is Dan Peterson spreading the rumor, because he doesn't really understand that the story is bogus and he is all about defending BYU's integrity.

So this is just a simple misunderstanding based on understandably wanting to save face and therefore not part of the Apologetic Process.

[_Simon Belmont]

He is in disagreement of Dr. Ritner's assessment of his scholarship, obviously.

See? It's funny how your word "bias" doesn't really fit into your sentence. Why don't you try rewriting it so that you attribute "bias" to Dr. Gee? I'm curious to see you make it work.[/quote]

See above. I reworded it.

[_Trevor]

So where is the evidence that Ritner is biased against Mormonism and that this is the reason for the break with Gee?

I don't see any such evidence proffered here.

[_Kevin Graham]

Dr. Ritner was biased against Dr. Gee's religious affiliation, not Dr. Gee personally.

Ok so now we are getting somewhere, and this is essentially the card apologists, along with Mormons in general, like to play. But you make this claim based on what evidence?

Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur

Watch what you say about my Momma.

To what end, Kevin Graham? What does Dr. Gee have to gain by these alleged lies?

Shouldn't it be obvious? The lies he told about the KEP were designed to distance Joseph Smith from the project. By asserting that the Egyptian characters to the left of the margins were written after the English translation (which was supposed to have been demonstrated by the "two inks" and his baseless "overrunning the English" argument), he thre a huge cloud of doubt over the critical argument that these represented the original translation manuscripts. So the "end" was a fabricated weapon that LDS apologetics was in desperate need of.

Assiduus usus uni rei deditus et ingenium et artem saepe vincit.

Leave my sister out of this too.

Call for references, please.

Seriously? Wow, I guess you really don't know much about this. Well, here you go: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3715

No, this is the part where I recommend that Dr. Gee receive the same respect given to Dr. Ritner, or to anyone who has accomplished so much.

As soon as Ritner makes an arse of himself by publishing lies in the name of religious apologetics, then I'll be equally critical of him. At the time of this incident Ritner was well established as an authority in the field. Gee was just a student at the time, who was fortunate enough to land a job based on his religious convinctions and apologetic writings, long before he even got his feet wet as a true scholar in the field. Comparing the two men in this way is ridiculous. Gee had every advantage most doctoral candidates could only dream about, but that is how it works in the LDS faith. As long as you're a Mormon in good standing, and you're willing to "defend the kingdom of God" at all costs, the LDS Church will see to it that your "talent" is put to use as soon as possible. I've seen this too many times to pretend it doesn't happen - especially in Utah!

Also, by getting the brethren higher paying jobs, this means more tithes that funnel into the Church's cofers.

Yes, it was. harmony indicated that she believed that Yale simply "wanted to get rid of Gee" so they awarded him a doctorate.

Well last time I checked the mirror, I wasn't harmony. Why do I need to defend other people's arguments?

It appears that you are simply speculating on much of this. I have no doubt that Dr. Ritner is a highly influential and respected academic and Egyptologist. He is probably also a nice guy. Saying that "BYU routinely does this with professors" is where you begin speculating.

No I am just going by what those who are "in the know" have said. I mean look at David Bokovoy now, on the verge of getting his PhD. He's already working for the Church Education System from what I understand, and Dan Peterson and Bill Hamblin have gone on record referring to David with pride as their "investment" that has progressed as expected. I wouldn't be surprised if David ends up being the Chair of some dept at BYU in the near future.

Please indicate, with sources, how Dr. Gee is "failing to increase in respectability."

From Ritner's letter. Ritner is his former professor and perhaps the most influencial person in the field. Why would I question what he says on the matter? Oh wait, because he has a bias towards Gee? Well, that hasn't been established yet.

Dr. Gee received a doctorate from one of the world's most respected universities, Yale. Even you do not question this.

And George Bush graduated from Harvard. Whoopty doo. How long will you guys milk this thing? Sure, it is an accomplishment, but it wasn't without hiccups. How many people earn a doctorate from Yale every year, and how many of those aren't disowned by their advisor for producing lackluster scholarship?

[_Kevin Graham]

I guess the best way to show how ridiculous it is to compare Ritner and Gee, is to line up their curriculums and compare to see what each one has puiblished. According to the wiki article of Gee (since he doesn't post his curriculum online:

Publications
[edit] Papers
Gee, John (1987). Creation: The Book of Abraham, Science, and the Ancient Near East. [University scholar project]. Provo, UT: Brigham Young University.
—— (1991). Notes on the Sons of Horus. [masters thesis]. Provo, UT: FARMS.
—— (1998). The Requirements of Ritual Purity in Ancient Egypt. [doctoral dissertation]. New Haven, CT: Yale University.
—— (1999). A History of the Joseph Smith Papyri and Book of Abraham. Provo, UT: FARMS.
—— (1999). The Ancient Owners of the Joseph Smith Papyri. Provo, UT: FARMS.
—— (2004). 'There Needs No Ghost, My Lord, Come from the Grave to Tell Us This': Dreams and Angels in Ancient Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature. http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Gee_Dreams.pdf.
[edit] Articles
Gee, John (September 1991). "References to Abraham Found in Two Egyptian Texts". Insights: an Ancient Window (Provo, UT: FARMS). http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/insig ... References.
—— (Fall 1992). "Limhi in the Library". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (Provo, UT: FARMS) 1 (1): 54–66. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/ ... num=1&id=4.
—— (Fall 1992). "A Note on the Name of Nephi". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (Provo, UT: FARMS) 1 (1): 189–191. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/ ... um=1&id=12.
—— (July 1992). "Abraham in Ancient Egyptian Texts". Ensign: 60. http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... &hideNav=1.
—— (1992). "A Tragedy of Errors". Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (Provo, UT: FARMS) 4: 93–119. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... um=1&id=92.
—— (1995). "Abracadabra, Isaac and Jacob". Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (Provo, UT: FARMS) 7 (1): 19–84. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=1&id=171.
—— (1996). "Two Notes on Egyptian Script". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (Provo, UT: FARMS) 5 (1): 162–176. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/ ... m=1&id=120.
—— (1996). "Telling the Story of the Joseph Smith Papyri". Review of Books on the Book of Mormon (Provo, UT: FARMS) 8 (2): 46–59. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=224.
—— (1997). "New and Old Light on Shawabtis from Mesoamerica". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (Provo, UT: FARMS) 6 (1): 64–69. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/ ... m=1&id=137.
—— (1997). "Another Note on the Three Days of Darkness". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (Provo, UT: FARMS) 6 (2): 235–44. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/ ... m=2&id=154.
—— (1998). "'Choose the Things That Please Me': On the Selection of the Isaiah Sections in the Book of Mormon". in Donald W. Parry, John W. Welch. Isaiah in the Book of Mormon. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893292.
—— (February 1999). "Ancient Manuscripts Fit Book of Mormon Pattern". Insights (Provo, UT: FARMS). http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/insig ... 58#pattern.
—— (1999). "The Keeper of the Gate". in Donald W. Parry, Stephen D. Ricks. The Temple in Time and Eternity. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893462. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books ... chapid=110.
—— (2000). "Eyewitness, Hearsay, and Physical Evidence of the Joseph Smith Papyri". in Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, Andrew H. Hedges. The Disciple as Witness: Essays on Latter-day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893454. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books ... chapid=268.
——; John A. Tvedtnes; Matthew Roper (2000). "Book of Mormon Names Attested in Ancient Hebrew Inscriptions". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 9 (1): 40–51. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/jbms/ ... m=1&id=210.
——; Bezalel Porten (2001). "Aramaic Funerary Practices in Egypt". in P.M. Michèle Daviau, John W. Wevers and Michael Weigl. The World of the Aramaeans. Sheffield, England: Sheffield Academic Press. ISBN 1841271799.
—— (2001). "Epigraphic Considerations on Janne Sjodahl's Experiment with Nephite Writing". Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 10 (1): 25. http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=237.
——; Stephen D. Ricks (2001). "Historical Plausibility: Historicity of the Book of Abraham as a Case Study". in Paul Y. Hoskisson. Historicity and the Latter-day Saint Scriptures. Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University. ISBN 1577349288. http://contentdm.lib.BYU.edu/u?/rsc,2421.
—— (2001). "Towards an Interpretation of Hypocephali". "Le lotus qui sort du terre": Mélanges offerts à Edith Varga. Bulletin du Musée Hongrois des Beaux-Arts Supplément-2001. Budapest: Musée Hongrois des Beaux-Arts. pp. 325–34.
—— (2002). "The Wrong Type of Book". in Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and John W. Welch. Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon. Provo, Utah: FARMS, Brigham Young University. ISBN 0934893721. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books ... &chapid=66.
——; Roper, Matthew (2003). "I Did Liken All Scriptures Unto Us: Early Nephite Understandings of Isaiah and Implications for 'Others' in the Land". The Fulness of the Gospel: Foundational Teachings from the Book of Mormon; The 32nd Annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book.
—— (2003). "The Earliest Example of ph-ntr?". Göttinger Miszellen 194: 25–27.
—— (2004). "Prophets, Initiation and the Egyptian Temple". Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities 31: 97–107.
—— (2004). "Egyptian Society During the Twenty-sixth Dynasty". in John W. Welch, David Rolph Seely, JoAnn H. Seely. Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893748. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books ... &chapid=29.
—— (2004). "A Seething Pot in the North: International Affairs Leading Up to Lehi's Day". in John W. Welch, David Rolph Seely, JoAnn H. Seely. Glimpses of Lehi's Jerusalem. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893748. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books ... &chapid=37.
—— (2004). "S3 mi nn: A Temporary Conclusion". Göttinger Miszellen 202: 55–58.
—— (2004). "Trial Marriage in Ancient Egypt? P. Louvre E 7846 Reconsidered". in Friedrich Hoffmann; Günther Vittmann. Res severa verum gaudium. Leuven, Belgium: Peeters Publishers. pp. 223–31.
—— (2004). "Notes on the Egyptian Motifs in Mozart's Magic Flute". BYU Studies 43 (3): 149–160. http://contentdm.lib.BYU.edu/u?/byustudies,4560.
—— (2005). "The Corruption of Scripture in Early Christianity". in Noel B. Reynolds. Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 9780934893022. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books ... chapid=206.
—— (2006). "A New Look at the ʿnḫ pɜ by Formula". in Hedvig Györy. Aegyptus et Pannonia III. Budapest: MEBT-OEB.
—— (2006). "Non-round Hypocephali". in Hedvig Györy. Aegyptus et Pannonia III. Budapest: MEBT-OEB.
—— (March 2006). "Context Matters". Review of Biblical Literature. Review of The "Mithras Liturgy": Text, Translation and Commentary, by Hans Dieter Betz.
—— (2007). "New Light on the Joseph Smith Papyri". FARMS Review 19 (2): 245–260. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=670.
—— (2008). "The Great and Last Sacrifice". in Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, Frank F. Judd Jr., and Thomas A. Wayment. "Behold the Lamb of God": An Easter Celebration. Provo, Utah: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University. ISBN 0842526935.
—— (2008). "Love and Marriage in the Ancient World: a historical Corrective". Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities 35.
—— (2008). "On the Practice of Sealing in the Book of the Dead and the Coffin Texts". Journal of the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities 35.
——; Kerry Muhlestein (2009). "Egyptian Middle Kingdom Contexts for Human Sacrifice". Studies in the Bible and Antiquity 1 (1).
[edit] Books
Gee, John (2000). A Guide to the Joseph Smith Papyri. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893543.
——; John A. Tvedtnes; Brian M. Hauglid (2001). Traditions About the Early Life of Abraham. Studies in the Book of Abraham; No. 1. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893594.
——; Hauglid, Brian M. (2005). Astronomy, Papyrus, and Covenant. Studies in the Book of Abraham; No. 3. Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 0934893764. http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/books/?bookid=40.
Nibley, Hugh (2005). Gee, John; Rhodes, Michael D.. ed. The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment (2nd ed.). Provo, Utah: FARMS. ISBN 159038539X.

Now instead of trying to count the number of Mormon related publications, it is better to look for those that have nothing to do with Mormonism. I think there are a few in there. Now after counting them up, tell me what John Gee's interest is in. Defending the Church using his credentials as an Egyptologist, or a genuine love for the subject of Egyptology?