Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b?????3

[_marg]

I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest a group effort. I do not know whether I would call it a conspiracy as such. After all, the group effort is on display right before our eyes in the historical record. Joseph Smith and friends brought forth the Book of Mormon. They also brought forth the Book of Abraham. What all of us disagree on is what happened in that "bringing forth." Obviously, I do not have much confidence in the "Sidney did it" hypothesis.

I got the impression with your comment "Perfect fodder for conspiracy theorizing, which alone ought to give anyone pause." that you thought it was ridiculous to suspect a conspiracy. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

If Smith along with one other person, planned & wrote the contents of the Book of Mormon would you call that a conspiracy? Do you think it far fetched to assume a conspiracy a likely theory?

And for clarity sake, the same questions with the Book of Abraham...if Smith along with one other person wrote the contents of the Book of Abraham would you call that a conspiracy? Do you think such a scenario would be far fetched?

[_Droopy]

The courtroom technique just will not work here Darth. It just will not work in the real world.

Please note that Droopy has now stated that this message board is the real world.

Those who post on it are in the real world (well, some subset thereof) and that "real world" is a world where the rules of evidence and courtroom process and protocol do not obtain. Critical thought, judicious logic, philosophical rigor, and intellectual creativity prevail, when they are allowed to, and the stern perimeters of Socratic questioning and courtroom protocol do not delimit the possible discourse.

Your mind has been so corrupted by your narrow legal education and experience that it has ceased to be a critical instrument outside those tightly constrained boundaries...as most of your argumentation here traditionally suggests.

[_Trevor]

I got the impression with your comment "Perfect fodder for conspiracy theorizing, which alone ought to give anyone pause." that you thought it was ridiculous to suspect a conspiracy. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Perhaps I observe an idiosyncratic distinction between the existence of actual conspiracies and the tendentious theorizing based on coincidence and possibility that I call conspiracy-theorizing.

I see too much of the latter in connection with theories of the production of the Book of Mormon. What I concede is that there was 1) probably a Gold Bible Company, 2) some of these men felt cheated when Joseph claimed to have retrieved the plates without them, and 3) he worked closely with members of his family, Martin Harris, and the scribes in the production of the Book of Mormon.

I don't know all of what is entailed in that production that is well attested in the historical evidence. So far I have not been persuaded by the Spalding witnesses, whether early or late.

And for clarity sake, the same questions with the Book of Abraham...if Smith along with one other person wrote the contents of the Book of Abraham would you call that a conspiracy? Do you think such a scenario would be far fetched?

Since I have no problem with the KEP being an exercise in "inspired translation" as brought about within a group context, I am comfortable with the idea that it was a group effort. It does not, however, strike me as a particularly secretive one. And, I think the final product was Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham. So, I see a high likelihood of group aspects to some stage(s) or aspects of the project, but Joseph Smith increasingly taking the lead in late 1835. He is the predominant architect.

I am not as yet persuaded of the existence of a July 1835 manuscript of the Book of Abraham, chapters 1-3.

[_Darth J]

Those who post on it are in the real world (well, some subset thereof) and that "real world" is a world where the rules of evidence and courtroom process and protocol do not obtain. Critical thought, judicious logic, philosophical rigor, and intellectual creativity prevail, when they are allowed to, and the stern perimeters of Socratic questioning and courtroom protocol do not delimit the possible discourse.

Your mind has been so corrupted by your narrow legal education and experience that it has ceased to be a critical instrument outside those tightly constrained boundaries...as most of your argumentation here traditionally suggests.

At least, that's what I read on a bumper sticker.

He is being driven by a burning, self justificational animus that can be seen in every post he makes, every insult he hurls when cornered by his own ignorance and sloppy thinking, and every attack on the intelligence or credentials (credentialism being the last refuge of an intellectual hack, in my view) of those he cannot hold his own against in the marketplace of ideas.

by the way, if you wonder why Droopy always posts these walls of purple prose that don't really say anything except that he's morally and intellectually superior to everyone else, I'll give you a hint:

It has something to do with why balding middle-aged men on Viagra drive Corvettes.

[_marg]

Perhaps I observe an idiosyncratic distinction between the existence of actual conspiracies and the tendentious theorizing based on coincidence and possibility that I call conspiracy-theorizing.

I see too much of the latter in connection with theories of the production of the Book of Mormon. What I concede is that there was 1) probably a Gold Bible Company, 2) some of these men felt cheated when Joseph claimed to have retrieved the plates without them, and 3) he worked closely with members of his family, Martin Harris, and the scribes in the production of the Book of Mormon.

I don't know all of what is entailed in that production that is well attested in the historical evidence. So far I have not been persuaded by the Spalding witnesses, whether early or late.

Obviously you don't see yourself adhering to a biased highly speculative conspiracy theory and yet you do Trevor. For you to reject all the evidence and witness statements over the span of many years, many of them unconnected with one another yet supportive of a Spalding manuscript necessitates that you believe all those many witnesses conspired against Mormonism and the Book of Mormon for no apparent personal gain at a time when Mormonism was an unimportant religion with a very small membership and had virtually no affect if any on their lives and not something they continued to pursue personally. So your theory is they all conspired, then essentially dropped their interest in continuing the conspiracy ...but according to you in this case it was an actual conspiracy apparently which you think well warranted to theorize.

Who here Trevor really accepts the wildest speculative conspiracy theory...you with your rejection of the all the Spalding witnesses and hence theory they all conspired or the S/R theorists who appreciate Smith was secretive in how he produced the Book of Mormon, that he likely didn't produce it on his own, that he likely conspired with others to create Mormonism and the Book of Mormon and that the Spalding witnesses for a spalding manuscript supports this scenario as well?

You are the one holding the wildest most speculative conspiracy theory in this Trevor by rejecting all those witnesses who had nothing to gain from it all, who then must have conspired with one another.

Since I have no problem with the KEP being an exercise in "inspired translation" as brought about within a group context, I am comfortable with the idea that it was a group effort. It does not, however, strike me as a particularly secretive one. And, I think the final product was Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham. So, I see a high likelihood of group aspects to some stage(s) or aspects of the project, but Joseph Smith increasingly taking the lead in late 1835. He is the predominant architect.

I am not as yet persuaded of the existence of a July 1835 manuscript of the Book of Abraham, chapters 1-3.

What does "inspired translation" mean? That sounds highly speculative Trevor. Are you saying that Smith was inspired by a God? If not, then why even use the word "inspired"? In what other sense are you intending that word to be taken as? He saw the papyri, and claimed he could translate it..what does inspiration have to do with anything? The evidence is he couldn't translate it.

[_Jersey Girl]

Darth J

It has something to do with why balding middle-aged men on Viagra drive Corvettes.

And why, in your opinion, do they do that?

[_harmony]

Darth J

It has something to do with why balding middle-aged men on Viagra drive Corvettes.

And why, in your opinion, do they do that?

Because they couldn't afford the 'Vette when they were 16.

[_Jersey Girl]

Amen, harm!

:-D

[_Darth J]

Darth J

It has something to do with why balding middle-aged men on Viagra drive Corvettes.

And why, in your opinion, do they do that?

You'd have to be a guy to understand. No offense.

EDIT: And by the way, I don't think there's anything wrong with being balding, middle-aged, or having a medical condition where you need Viagra. It's being insecure or having anxiety about the above.

[_Jersey Girl]

You'd have to be a guy to understand. No offense.

EDIT: And by the way, I don't think there's anything wrong with being balding, middle-aged, or having a medical condition where you need Viagra. It's being insecure or having anxiety about the above.

Do you think there's something wrong about this?