Joseph Smith Megathread

[_harmony]

Do you ignore the fact his alleged scriptures have no basis in fact?

Does the Bible have an actually basis in fact? Does the Koran?

[_Inconceivable]

You have not a clue about with whom you are dealing.

CFR

Unless you wish to give up your anonimity, you are an empty suit with as many credentials.

Even so, you have given plenty of clues. You are a parrot that can type.

Like I stated, when you have some original thought, come back and we'll attempt to carry on an intelligent conversation.

[_Yoda]

Simon, you mentioned 3 alternatives regarding Joseph Smith's prophecy.

I submit 3 alternatives regarding polygamy:

1. Knowing the prior heartbreak polygamy caused his daughters in prior dispensations, which the Lord himself acknowledged in the Book of Mormon, the Lord commanded polygamy anyway.

2. Joseph had an affair and used a polygamy revelation to conveniently cover his tracks.

3. Joseph honestly believed that polygamy was a commandment, and he was wrong.

I refuse to believe #1. It makes no sense based on many factors. Raising righteous seed can easily be done in a one man-one woman situation. Why would a kind and loving Heavenly Father place this type of trial on his children when the primary outcome is the degredation and heartbreak of His daughters, which He, himself recognized?

That leaves 2 and 3 as options. Comments?

Oh, and, in case you're wondering...I am active LDS.

[_just me]

From the journal of Joseph Smith:

10 April 1842-I preached in the grove, and pronounced a curse upon all adulterers and Fornicators, and unvirtuous persons and those who have made use of my name to carry on their iniquitous designs.

Pronouncing a curse seems most unChristlike in my opinion. Especially since he himself was teaching polygamy and practicing it at the time. If he was not "legally" married to other women who he was having sex with then he was breaking the law of the time.

6 February 1844-...I prophesied at the table that 5 years would not roll round before the company would all be able to live without cooking.

Failed prophesy.

3 March 1844-...When the Temple is completed, no man shall pass the threshhold till he has paid $5.00 and every stranger shall pay $5.00...

A couple interesting things here. There is a SET COST to enter the temple. This is not right according to how things are taught today.
The next thing-it is said that "strangers" will be allowed in the temple. In fact, there is another writing that says people of ALL nations, kindreds, tounues and people will be able to enter the temple when it is opened. Joseph died and this changed. No strangers, no blacks...

I remember hearing how it was so wrong that the Catholic church had charged people to get their beloved dead ancestors out of pergatory (what was that called?).

Well, come to find out the church was charging folks to use the baptismal font in the Nauvoo Temple!!!

What is the difference??????
There is no difference.

I will look for the reference to the "money box" being made for the font later. Right now I need to get back to my family.

[_Ray A]

I have read voraciously about Joseph Smith from the time I was old enough to read. I have read every book, every pamphlet, every news article, and every publication I could get my hands on. To this day, I read everything new that comes from the press.

Then this would have to be a case of "ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth".

[_Tarski]

You state this not as your opinion, but as if it was a fact. On what do you base this conclusion?

it is my opinion, based on a lifetime of study and research.

Based on what you are saying here it is hard to believe this lifetime of research thing---that is unless what you were doing was finding ways to rationalize things (reading apologetic or faith promoting stuff).


Look Simon. If you had been raised in Scientology and started to hear a few negative things about L. Ron Hubbard, you might easily spend a lifetime researching L. Ron Hubbard only to come to the conclusion you were subconsciously seeking all along--namely, that he was a great man whose weird stories were more than fantasy.

The Church of Scientology has apologetic answers for all the negative stuff about Hubbard and his ridiculous stories. But since you were not born into that church and never did get sucked in by a friend, you can see things for what they are and...wait for it...
...wait for it...
...wait for it...

no lifetime of study necessary!

In other words, the lifetime of study about this cult originator is already a clue--you have gone beyond the mark. It would have been obvious long ago if you hadn't come into this study with such a heavy investment.

[_Simon Belmont]

Your point? Did Smith believe he was married to all his wives or not?

False dichotomy. He believed he was sealed to them.

If he didn't love all the women he married,

That is not my position.

then yes, he was using them. Some say for sex.

Some, who?

Others say for something else.

From where are you gathering your ideas?

Either way, God does not ask people to use each other, for any purpose.

No, God uses people for tools in his hands.

[_Simon Belmont]

Well I was not there, and you were not there. It is impossible to precisely judge a historical person. All we have are writings.

Then based on the historical record, you're saying Hitler wasn't evil? Mussolini wasn't evil? Ghengis Khan was just kidding? David Koresh and Jim Jones were just misunderstood?

Do you realize the implications of what you just wrote?

I implore you to at least attempt to follow along, okay?

When dealing with historical figures, since we cannot be witness, we must rely on all available evidences (be they first hand accounts, journals, and other writings).

I have read, studied, and researched Joseph Smith for my entire life. I am an expert on the subject. I find that he was a mortal man who made mistakes, but he was also a Prophet of God.

[_Simon Belmont]

Then your bar is pretty low for who can be prophets. Do you ignore his illegal treasure seeking?

What illegal treasure seeking? If you are going to make a claim, please back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

Do you ignore his false prophesies?

You have absolutely no idea what the nature of prophesy is.

Do you ignore his bank fraud?

If you are going to make a claim, please back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

Do you ignore his unfaithfulness?

If you are going to make a claim, please back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

Do you ignore his law breaking?

If you are going to make a claim, please back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

Do you ignore the fact his alleged scriptures have no basis in fact?

LOL! If you are going to make a claim, please back it up if you expect anyone to take you seriously.

And before you respond, I was once LDS, I know all the weak apologetic answers to these questions....

That makes absolutely no difference to me. You are still reprehensibly wrong. Please post here until you have something of substance.

[_Simon Belmont]

CFR

Unless you wish to give up your anonimity, you are an empty suit with as many credentials.

As are you. The difference is I know what I am capable of, and my conviction is certain.

Even so, you have given plenty of clues. You are a parrot that can type.

Yes, yes, we all know of your propensity to attack the person when you cannot argue with the "big boys."