Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Simon Belmont]

For an expert on Joseph Smith you sure do not seem to be very aware of things he did in his life. It's a shame because I really was looking forward to your thoughts on some of these things.

When I have more time, probably tomorrow, I will reply to your posts. I meant no offense.

[_Markk]

Simon,

Not that it matters much, but while we are doing 20 questions were you born in the church or are you the "c" word?

Off topic, but I'll make an exception here.

Every member, at one time or another is a convert. Both those who have been born into the faith, and those who have not must, at some point in their lives, take Moroni's promise and be truly converted.

Were you born into the church? Sounds like you weren't and you're posts kinda reflect this, but I could be wrong?

Take care
Mark

[_Themis]

What would be, in your opinion, the end which justified Joseph Smith's means?

Lying and making things up like the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham. Their is more then enough evidence that he did just that. Remember lying for the Lord doctrine.

Right, this is option 2. Really, truly believing, but being wrong.

Actually no. Your option 2 has Joseph with a major mental disorder which is not a part of the pious fraud theory.

Even if you are correct, human nature dictates that in order to preserve his life, he will resort to anything, especially telling his captors what he believes they want to hear, If other methods have not worked. It is basic fight or flight.

A bit simplistic and incorrect. By this logic even if Joseph or anyone else did see God they would say they made it up in order to save his life. Sure some people do say what ever to save their life, and major fraudsters are more likely(not all mind you) to say what ever to save their life, but we are talking about a pious fraud. Your also forgetting that Joseph wasn't given these options, and even at Carthage they were not asking for a confession(their desire to kill him wasn't solely based on religious reasons). He was most likely trying to use the masonic distress in hopes they could be rescued. I would have done the same.

Not to the extend Joseph Smith did.

We are talking about option 1 fraudsters, which I don't think Joseph was, and I think we could find a number who have suffered and died for their frauds. I'm sure none of them wanted to.

So now we have a group of pious frauds?

There is the possibility a few others may have been involved

And if they were unaware, then there would not be witnesses.

Not really. People can be tricked. There is some evidence that the witnesses saw with their spiritual eyes. Memory can also play a factor as well as how we are able to justify or convince ourselves of things. I have a relative who is very good at this, not to mention all those apologists :)

Actual frauds do not flourish into world-wide religions. For example: Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.

I hope you only kidding, but I think you may be serious. You really need to control your bias and get out and learn a lot more about human nature and the world around you. How about Scientology or JW. Oh BYW I would agree with Heaven's gate, because suicide cults never seem to be able to hold onto their members

I stand by Martin Harris. He was a good, but confused, man. I have read church materials as well as critical materials (works by the Tanners, Fawn Brodie, etc.)

I think he was a good man, and confused is right. I would also add gullible to that list.

Okay, but surely you can admit that there a lot of things people find hard to be God-sanctioned (much of the Old Testament, for example).

Sure, further evdience of being man-made. Remember, in the beginning Man created God in his own Image

Perhaps, but it is too easy to forget all of the good things about Joseph. Having read "The Joseph Smith Papers," it is amazing the love he had for his friends and neighbors.

Sure their are good things about Joseph. I'm interested in the good and bad when evaluating his claims. I think he did love those he viewed loyal to him, and family was extremely important to him.

I disagree. I think he has asked for faith numerous times in the Bible especially.

Wrong. You already said God won't talk to us all, so we are left with only those claiming to represent God. I would think you would realize why this kind of faith being asked of us is not good.

[_sr1030]

Simon,

If you really want sources for claims in this thread, I can help. Tell me which claim you deny is accurate and I will find the source. Your not just asking for sources as a cheap denial of a claim are you? I hope not.

thanks,
sr1030

[_just me]

On bankruptcy:

April 18, 1842: Hyrum and Joseph file for bankruptcy in Carthage [see HC 4:600]

On church SALVATION depending on building the Nauvoo House and Temple:

November 15, 1841: the first great object before us, and the Saints generally, is to help forward the completion of the Temple and the Nauvoo House-buildings which are now in progress according to the revelations, and which must be completed to secure the salvation of the Church in the last days. (there is more interesting stuff about how the kings and queens of the earth and nobleman with visit the Nauvoo Temple...) [HC 4:449]

An Epistle from the Twelve: ...if this building is not completed speedily, "we shall be rejected as a Church with our dead;" for the Lord hath spoken it. (this is a fund drive that talks a LOT about the Church being rejected if they don't complete these buildings) [HC 4:472-475]

February 21, 1843: Joseph Smith says "The building of the Nauvoo House is just as sacred in my view as the Temple. I want the Nauvoo House built. It must be built. Our salvation [as a city] depends upon it. [HC 5:285]

April 19, 1843: The Nauvoo House must be built. Your mission is to build the Nauvoo House. The Lord hath need of other houses as well as a Temple. [HC 5:366-368]

D&C 124:31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.
32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.
33 For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;

D&C 124:56 And now I say unto you, as pertaining to my boarding house which I have commanded you to build for the boarding of strangers, let it be built unto my name, and let my name be named upon it, and let my servant Joseph and his house have place therein, from generation to generation.
57 For this anointing have I put upon his head, that his blessing shall also be put upon the head of his posterity after him.
58 And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed.
59 Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord.
60 And let the name of that house be called Nauvoo House; and let it be a delightful habitation for man, and a resting-place for the weary traveler, that he may contemplate the glory of Zion, and the glory of this, the corner-stone thereof;

Section 124 is a pretty fascinating section. Very meaty. Lots to ponder upon. Things that fly in the face of D&C 132....and the modern church.

On the Nauvoo House never being completed: http://www.cofchrist.org/Joseph Smith/riverside/Default.asp

On the Nauvoo Temple never being completed:
Because the Saints had to abandon Nauvoo, the building was not entirely completed.

Joseph was a fascinating historical figure. I find it amazing that he condemned his own church with his own revelations.

The Saints were PROMISED by the Lord in Joseph Smith's revelations that they would not be moved from Nauvoo if they obeyed him. They most certainly were moved out of Nauvoo. If the Lord's promises are sure, and Joseph Smith was a prophet, then we must conclude that the Saints were disobedient and lost their salvation as a people.

From D&C 124:45

And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

[_AtticusFinch]

Wrong? How? You certainly appear to not know enough to prove anything I said wrong. I am right and you know it. That is why all you could do is repeat yourself over and over.

Are you actually going to support your arguments, or just spew hate-vomit from your mouth?

Lol. So truth is vomit to you? The only vomit I have seen is your silly egomaniacle posts

[_Simon Belmont]

Were you born into the church? Sounds like you weren't and you're posts kinda reflect this, but I could be wrong?

Take care
Mark

I was indeed.

Lying and making things up like the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham. Their is more then enough evidence that he did just that. Remember lying for the Lord doctrine.

I understand, but to what end? What is the purpose of "Lying and making things up like the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham"?

Actually no. Your option 2 has Joseph with a major mental disorder which is not a part of the pious fraud theory.

One could make the argument that the pious fraud does have a mental disorder, seeing hallucinations and such in Joseph Smith's case.

By this logic even if Joseph or anyone else did see God they would say they made it up in order to save his life.

I agree, and he didn't. For me, this is an even more powerful testament to the story's truthfulness.

You really need to control your bias and get out and learn a lot more about human nature and the world around you. How about Scientology or JW.

Those two religions are insignificant, even the Jehovah's Witnesses have only half of the membership. I am not bashing on them or saying they are wrong, I am simply saying that the success of the LDS church is another testament to Joseph Smith.

Oh BYW I would agree with Heaven's gate, because suicide cults never seem to be able to hold onto their members

Nice one! Ha ha.

If you really want sources for claims in this thread, I can help. Tell me which claim you deny is accurate and I will find the source. Your not just asking for sources as a cheap denial of a claim are you? I hope not.

Welcome, my old friend.

I asked for sources out of pure curiosity. I wanted to read what just me has read. It was not malicious in nature, as you seem to automatically assume.

On bankruptcy:

April 18, 1842: Hyrum and Joseph file for bankruptcy in Carthage [see HC 4:600]

This source I was actually aware of. Does it have any bearing on whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet or not?

On church SALVATION depending on building the Nauvoo House and Temple....

Very interesting read, thank you for the course. It appears this was an example of a failed prophecy. The Nauvoo house was never built.

Does it have any bearing on whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet?

The Saints were PROMISED by the Lord in Joseph Smith's revelations that they would not be moved from Nauvoo if they obeyed him.

There are still Mormons in Nauvoo. There were Mormons who remained, If I recall correctly.

[_Simon Belmont]

Lol. So truth is vomit to you? The only vomit I have seen is your silly egomaniacle posts

Come back when you have truth to tell.

Until then, grow up.

[_harmony]

You are a self-proclaimed expert. Big deal.

And you are a self-proclaimed Mormon, big deal.

Aren't you a self-proclaimed Mormon, Simon?

As an expert in all things Joseph Smith, due to your extensive research and lifelong study, you sure don't know much about him.

[_harmony]

The Saints were PROMISED by the Lord in Joseph Smith's revelations that they would not be moved from Nauvoo if they obeyed him.

There are still Mormons in Nauvoo. There were Mormons who remained, If I recall correctly.

Amazing how that gets lost in any story told about Nauvoo during that time.