Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Simon Belmont]

Aren't you a self-proclaimed Mormon, Simon?

As an expert in all things Joseph Smith, due to your extensive research and lifelong study, you sure don't know much about him.

I know everything about him.

[_AtticusFinch]

Lol. So truth is vomit to you? The only vomit I have seen is your silly egomaniacle posts

Come back when you have truth to tell.

Until then, grow up.

lol...I have been telling the truth. And your childish insults are perfect examples of LDS doctrine.

Now, change your diaper and stop the insult tantrums

[_AtticusFinch]

Aren't you a self-proclaimed Mormon, Simon?

As an expert in all things Joseph Smith, due to your extensive research and lifelong study, you sure don't know much about him.

I know everything about him.

like his illegal treasure seeking? The bank frauds, the infidelity, the false prophesies, etc.?

[_Simon Belmont]

like his illegal treasure seeking? The bank frauds, the infidelity, the false prophesies, etc.?

You have no understanding of which you speak. This is your last chance for civil discourse, otherwise you are going on my ignore list.

For the final time, back up your claims:

What illegal treasure seeking?

What bank frauds?

What infidelity?

What false prophecies?

[_Joseph]

For the final time, back up your claims:

What illegal treasure seeking?

What bank frauds?

What infidelity?

What false prophecies?
----------------------------

Don't be so stupid morgbutt. Someone who claims to know everything about Joseph Smith would be familiar with this and where it is found. You are just another moronic priesthood nutcase.

[_Jason Bourne]

Joseph Smith unfortunately did many things that were repugnant to many of his neighbors who lived in his own time. Polygamy was certainly one of those. Culturally it was abhorrent to the world in which he lived.

You mistake my position as condoning polygamy.

Ok. .But you seem rather cavelier about it. You claim Smith did not lie because he was legally married to only one women. Is that not similar to President Clinton's infamous comment of "I did not have sex with that woman."

I do not. I also do not pretend to know exactly why the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy. He has his reasons.

Of course this begs the question of did God really command it? My studies on this lead me to conclude it is likely God did not command this. I do not claim to know why Smith did it. It could have been for sex and to justify it to his followers or even to himself. He might have really believed God commanded it. He may have been motivated by his own ever growing complex new doctrine and believed it really was necessary for growth in the here after.

But they way he did it and the results from it seem anything but Godly to me, at least how I understand what Godly means. Thus I conclude that it was not from God.

And by the way, your foolish arguments about polygamy do not deserve even responses. If this is what you need to make you feel good about it have at it. But it is pretty clear you are not the authority on Joseph Smith that you pretend to be.

You have not a clue about with whom you are dealing.

Talks cheap dude. Based on what you have posted thus far I don't see any great depth of knowledge on your part. I could be mistaken.

However, when one has to decide whether they trust the person that says God is appearing to them and speaking to them well them his mistakes, egregious errors and even intentional things the person claiming supernatural communication does then they have absolute bearing on the decision.

I am not sure what your point is here, but I will say this:

You said it did not matter what Joseph did or what mistakes he made. My point is that his his actions reflect his character and whether or not his claims to supernatural revelations can be trusted. So while a person does not have to be perfect to be a prophet what that person does can impact how well we can trust what he claims.

I have read voraciously about Joseph Smith from the time I was old enough to read. I have read every book, every pamphlet, every news article, and every publication I could get my hands on. To this day, I read everything new that comes from the press. Joseph Smith made mistakes, and he had human failures, but he was a sincere, honorable man.

Great. I have read probably 10-15 books on Joseph Smith, the Documentive History twice, Roberts history twice, hundreds of articles and papers, and so on. So you are well read about Joseph Smith, So am I as are others here.

You know who says this? The very few that claim God speaks to them. Maybe the prophets are not being honest about this.

I believe you will find, upon further research, that there have been much more than "a very few" that have claimed supernatural direction.

I don't think so. Given the billions of humans that have walked the earth the numbers that claim God speaks directly to them and that their message is the one to follow are relatively fiew.

Joseph Smith used his power and position and applied duress that would come from his position and power to persuade women to enter into plural marriage, yes dude, MARRIAGE, with him.

You cannot demonstrate this. It is your opinion. I assure you that I have studied more about this than you have, and I do not come to the same conclusion.

When a man that is viewed upon as God's mouthpiece tells a female believer of younger years that she was appointed as his before the world was and that if she enters into plural marriage with him her exaltation is assured but she has only 24 hours to decide well, that seems like an awful lot of duress at least to me. But sure, one can only read the historical accounts and make their conclusion. Apparently you are ok when someone abuses their positing of power and authority.

And yes, many of these marriages were consummated.

Again, I do not deny this. It has no bearing on whether he was what he claimed to be.

I believe you were arguing at one point that we cannot really know if Joseph Smith consummated many of his plural marriages. I was pointing out you were certainly in error since many of his wives testified that they did consummate the marriage.

And yes he did lie about it, to the public but even more seriously, to his wife Emma. He hid many of these marriages from here and even did a mock wedding when she gave her permission for him to marry the Partridge girls when she did not know he had already married them.

You really want to bring Emily Partridge into this? Do you even understand this story?

Yes and yes.

Joseph Smith mentioned it to her, asking if she wished the matter ended. Answering in the affirmative, Joseph Smith left her alone. Later, Emily said this:

[In] those few months I received a testimony of the words that Joseph would have said to me and their nature before they were told me and being convinced of them I received them readily.

This changes the fact the Joseph Smith hid his previous marriages from Emma to Emily and her sister exactly how?

Tell me Simon, why are you so ok with what Joseph Smith did with polygamy but would never accept a man like Wayne Bent and his polygamy in the name of God.

I do not claim to know every reason for God's commandments. I accept that Joseph Smith was a mortal man and made many mistakes, as do we all. He was, nonetheless, a prophet of God.

Nice dodge. But really that is the only answer you can give when you look at a Wayne Bent or the many like him , including Joseph Smith.

[_Jason Bourne]

Joseph Smith unfortunately did many things that were repugnant to many of his neighbors who lived in his own time. Polygamy was certainly one of those. Culturally it was abhorrent to the world in which he lived.

You mistake my position as condoning polygamy.

Ok. .But you seem rather cavelier about it. You claim Smith did not lie because he was legally married to only one women. Is that not similar to President Clinton's infamous comment of "I did not have sex with that woman."

I do not. I also do not pretend to know exactly why the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy. He has his reasons.

Of course this begs the question of did God really command it? My studies on this lead me to conclude it is likely God did not command this. I do not claim to know why Smith did it. It could have been for sex and to justify it to his followers or even to himself. He might have really believed God commanded it. He may have been motivated by his own ever growing complex new doctrine and believed it really was necessary for growth in the here after.

But they way he did it and the results from it seem anything but Godly to me, at least how I understand what Godly means. Thus I conclude that it was not from God.

And by the way, your foolish arguments about polygamy do not deserve even responses. If this is what you need to make you feel good about it have at it. But it is pretty clear you are not the authority on Joseph Smith that you pretend to be.

You have not a clue about with whom you are dealing.

Talks cheap dude. Based on what you have posted thus far I don't see any great depth of knowledge on your part. I could be mistaken.

However, when one has to decide whether they trust the person that says God is appearing to them and speaking to them well them his mistakes, egregious errors and even intentional things the person claiming supernatural communication does then they have absolute bearing on the decision.

I am not sure what your point is here, but I will say this:

You said it did not matter what Joseph did or what mistakes he made. My point is that his his actions reflect his character and whether or not his claims to supernatural revelations can be trusted. So while a person does not have to be perfect to be a prophet what that person does can impact how well we can trust what he claims.

I have read voraciously about Joseph Smith from the time I was old enough to read. I have read every book, every pamphlet, every news article, and every publication I could get my hands on. To this day, I read everything new that comes from the press. Joseph Smith made mistakes, and he had human failures, but he was a sincere, honorable man.

Great. I have read probably 10-15 books on Joseph Smith, the Documentive History twice, Roberts history twice, hundreds of articles and papers, and so on. So you are well read about Joseph Smith, So am I as are others here.

You know who says this? The very few that claim God speaks to them. Maybe the prophets are not being honest about this.

I believe you will find, upon further research, that there have been much more than "a very few" that have claimed supernatural direction.

I don't think so. Given the billions of humans that have walked the earth the numbers that claim God speaks directly to them and that their message is the one to follow are relatively few.

Joseph Smith used his power and position and applied duress that would come from his position and power to persuade women to enter into plural marriage, yes dude, MARRIAGE, with him.

You cannot demonstrate this. It is your opinion. I assure you that I have studied more about this than you have, and I do not come to the same conclusion.

When a man that is viewed upon as God's mouthpiece tells a female believer of younger years that she was appointed as his before the world was and that if she enters into plural marriage with him her exaltation is assured but she has only 24 hours to decide well, that seems like an awful lot of duress at least to me. But sure, one can only read the historical accounts and make their conclusion. Apparently you are ok when someone abuses their positing of power and authority.

And yes, many of these marriages were consummated.

Again, I do not deny this. It has no bearing on whether he was what he claimed to be.

I believe you were arguing at one point that we cannot really know if Joseph Smith consummated many of his plural marriages. I was pointing out you were certainly in error since many of his wives testified that they did consummate the marriage.

And yes he did lie about it, to the public but even more seriously, to his wife Emma. He hid many of these marriages from here and even did a mock wedding when she gave her permission for him to marry the Partridge girls when she did not know he had already married them.

You really want to bring Emily Partridge into this? Do you even understand this story?

Yes and yes.

Joseph Smith mentioned it to her, asking if she wished the matter ended. Answering in the affirmative, Joseph Smith left her alone. Later, Emily said this:

[In] those few months I received a testimony of the words that Joseph would have said to me and their nature before they were told me and being convinced of them I received them readily.

This changes the fact the Joseph Smith hid his previous marriages from Emma to Emily and her sister exactly how?

Tell me Simon, why are you so ok with what Joseph Smith did with polygamy but would never accept a man like Wayne Bent and his polygamy in the name of God.

I do not claim to know every reason for God's commandments. I accept that Joseph Smith was a mortal man and made many mistakes, as do we all. He was, nonetheless, a prophet of God.

Nice dodge. But really that is the only answer you can give when you look at a Wayne Bent or the many like him , including Joseph Smith.

[_AtticusFinch]

like his illegal treasure seeking? The bank frauds, the infidelity, the false prophesies, etc.?

You have no understanding of which you speak. This is your last chance for civil discourse, otherwise you are going on my ignore list.

For the final time, back up your claims:

What illegal treasure seeking?

What bank frauds?

What infidelity?

What false prophecies?

Thank you. You have admitted you know nothing about Joe Smith

[_Jason Bourne]

But yes, it is different today. Strangers (a.k.a. non-members) are NOT allowed and AA's are allowed (finally). Last I checked there was no admission price at the door.

Tithing is the admission price today.

[_Jason Bourne]

Actual frauds do not flourish into world-wide religions. For example: Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.

So you accept Muhammad as God's prophet and Islam as his true religions then?