Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Dr. Shades]

[Will Schryver] plans to prove "conclusively" that it was impossible for Joseph Smith to have sex with those women. He will argue that Joseph Smith was homosexual.

Unfortunately, Schryver doesn't see how this creates more problems than it solves.

You know what? That's a GREAT analogy for what he did with the KEP.

[_Simon Belmont]

Note to the critical thought process… this is how a brainwashed mind works:
Why does one need to “study more” to find the truth?

Why does one need to "study more" to find out more detail about anything? For example, one of my early courses in classics was a survey-style class, where we learned of many subjects in classics, but not much detail about any particular subject.

I was enthralled with the fertile crescent, so I decided to read more about it on my own. I went to a library and checked out a few books and learned a lot more than was presented in class.

I suppose some members of this forum would say that my professor lied to me, but how incredibly silly a notion.

The LDS church prints lies about the translation method. The LDS church hides the magical seer stones that the apologists “conflate” with the term Urim and Thummim.

Wow! I just read about the seer stones in an Ensign article the other day!

The LDS church hides the papyrus used to “translate” the Book of Abraham.

LOL, you really are ignorant, aren't you?

One doesn’t need to “study more” to discount the mistruth,

If they think it is not truth, they certainly need to study more.

one only needs to acknowledge the deception the Mormon church uses to hide the truth.

I suppose you think that "deception" means "not giving students every detail about everything in Church history and teachings in one hour." LOL.

Note to the critical thought process… this is called circular reasoning. The example has nothing to do with discounting bad information.

Neither does the example of Church leaders. Unless, of course, you can show otherwise.

Show me one picture of Joseph Smith with his head in his hat using a seer stone in a Mormon publication.

LOL! I suppose you think that this is an actual photograph of deoxyribonucleic acid?


Yet this was shown to science classes. Those LIARS!

LOL, get a life, man!

[/quote] I can show you many with the “finger on book” that never happened. [/quote]

Oh, he never put his finger on a book? You were there to witness this? Give me a break.

This is an absolute lie. What Simon determines is “readily available” is only available through so-called “anti” Mormon sites. Mormon sites deleted the true history and distort the truth. Willy was lied to, just as 99% of Mormons are today.

It was somehow available to the anti-Mormons. Hmmm, it certainly makes one wonder. Do you expect the Church to deliver their entire archives to your door?

Note to the critical thought process… this is how a brainwashed mind appeases its cognitive dissonance. Using Simon’s logic, the church leaders “left some things out” doesn’t mean they lied.

Nope, because they didn't leave anything out that I couldn't easily find out on my own (which I did, repeatedly). They teach from the manual.

Preaching gospel that’s true doesn’t require that truth be omitted. By abstention of the truth, the lie is a distorted version of the truth. Simon Belmont is a liar, but justifies lying by teaching partial truth to itching ears.

Then what are you? What cause do you champion?

Truth. Peace. Respect.

You equate using occult seer stones to deliver the so-called “Christian” doctrine of a false prophet as “so what” in its significance.

From where did the "occult" get the seer stone idea?

Are you that ignorant? If Joseph Smith used a Ouija board to “translate” the pagan book of the dead, would this also be a “so what” level of relevance?

Well, now there's a question! If Joseph murdered 50,000 people would I still believe him?

Your contradiction shows the brainwashed level your distorted sense of reality has taught your mind to discount truth to appease the cognitive dissonance.

And you were brainwashed to leave the Church.

On one hand, you claim, “Being lied to is being deliberately deceived.” On the other, you claim, “Just because there were some things that were left out doesn't mean you were lied to!”

Those statements are not contradictions.

Your contradictions make sense to you, because you need them to make sense. The occult magic believed in by Joe Smith to dupe people into believing his lies to convey false doctrine connected to Jesus Christ are being preached by you as the truth.

Only because it is. Your use of the word "occult" is meant to scare people, but it really just means "hidden." Knock off the lies.

Sleep well Simon Belmont, as this domain is defined by the truth if you subscribe to the Bible, and you are preacher to itching ears… a liar. Your motive is personal gain… you need it to be true.

Please, tell me more about myself. What do I gain, personally?

It’s sad though… your own brainwashed sense of self can’t even see simple contradiction.

How poetic, from a brainwashed anti-Mormon.

More twisted circular reasoning.

And you have demonstrated more than necessary that you have absolutely no clue what circular reasoning is.

How about, “Well I don’t know anyone who is perfect, so how can we hold Joseph Smith to perfection?”

Indeed, how about it?

How about, “Well, there are faults in the Bible, so it makes sense there are faults in Mormonism too.”

Yes yes, how about it?

In reality, Joseph Smith was very bad person and a dubious con man.

What a claim! Too bad you have no way to back it up.

Using his power to marry other men’s wives and little 14 and 15 year old girls is not something one should use a metric of perfection to gauge.

Uh huh . . . go on. This has been dealt with to infinity.

How far do you need to move to goalposts to score your supposed point. You are brainwashed Simon Belmont and cannot think critically.

You are a brainwashed anti-Mormon.

You lie to appease what you need to be true, so that others will join you in ignorance of the truth. Sleep well Simon Belmont. If there’s one thing the Bible is very clear about it’s God disdain for liars. When your life is done, any who listened to your lies and chose the path of deception will hang on your head.

Wow! Now you're essentially damning me. By what authority?

[_Willy Law]

Wow! I just read about the seer stones in an Ensign article the other day!

Please link Ensign article referencing seer stone in a hat for translation of the Book of Mormon in the past 10 years

[_Simon Belmont]

Wow! I just read about the seer stones in an Ensign article the other day!

Please link Ensign article referencing seer stone in a hat for translation of the Book of Mormon in the past 10 years

I never said it was less than 10 years old.
http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=05169209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav

A simple search on LDS.org will reveal many many more.

[_Simon Belmont]

I felt so bad I almost could not deliver when my wife decided she felt like a nooner after lunch. I said "almost" polygamy-porter don't worry brotha, I came through like a champ.

Strange, but slightly humorous joke.

Hopefully you will cut me a little slack. I am still very much in my anger phase.

You should not be angry. The Church has done nothing to you but provide a wholesome environment. The fact that you made it out to be something that it was not in your own mind is not the fault of the Church.

Nothing triggers my anger as much as people trying to defend the church in lying to me throughout my life. Apologies.

Have you considered counseling?

I think your definition of lie is different than the church's. According to the current Preach my Gospel manual being taught this year in virtually every class:

Lying is intentionally deceiving others.

And my definition used "deliberate" . . . what is the difference you imagine?

Based on the church's definition of lying would you like to recant your statement that I was not lied to? Come on Simon, man up and admit we were lied to.

You were not intentionally deceived. You were not deceived at all. Everything in the lesson manuals that the teachers are supposed to follow is truth. I admit that it does not cover every question that anyone could possibly ask, that it does not allow for the teacher to explain every detail of Church history from 1830 to present in the time allotted.

But guess what? The intention of Church is to learn of Christ, and to worship Him. Any other questions you have are your responsibility. You were not lied to.

[_Willy Law]

I never said it was less than 10 years old.
http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=05169209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav

A simple search on LDS.org will reveal many many more.

You're not seriously trumpeting a 17 year old Ensign article as proof that the church does not hide it's embarrassing history are you?

[_Willy Law]

Strange, but slightly humorous joke.

You think that's strange you should see what I am going to do to my wife when she get's the kids to sleep upstairs. It will not be rated PG. I'll fill you in later.

You should not be angry. The Church has done nothing to you but provide a wholesome environment. The fact that you made it out to be something that it was not in your own mind is not the fault of the Church.

What is the point in being "wholesome" when the only reason you are being wholesome is to avoid some awful punishment or eternal reward promised to you by the church? How about teaching your kids to be good people because it is the right thing to do? Not because you if you do you will have many wives in heaven and if you don't you are going to some second rate heaven where you cannot have sex.
I gave an enormous portion of my life to the church based on a lie. I believed the fairy tale edition of the gospel and in turned became a lier myself.

Have you considered counseling?

I have, thanks for asking.

And my definition used "deliberate" . . . what is the difference you imagine?

I'll try this one more time:

Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel: “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” (Exodus 20:16). Jesus also taught this when He was on earth (see Matthew 19:18). There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.

Please tell me how, what the church does with it's history (ex. not all truth is useful), does not fall under this definition of lying?
It willfully deceives by silence and telling only part of the truth, you have admitted to as much. This is lying according to their very own definition.

But guess what? The intention of Church is to learn of Christ, and to worship Him. .

Are you sure you are on the right board? Are you sure you are a supporter of the LDS church? Go to fast and testimony meeting and tell me how many testimonies mention Christ vs. Joseph Smith.
Before my disaffection I kept track one Sunday. Every single testimony mentioned Joseph Smith. All but two mentioned TSM. Only one person mentioned Christ other than to quickly close in-the-name-of-jesus-christ-amen.
If you want to learn of Christ you are in the wrong church Simon. The LDS church worships Joseph Smith and the crusty old white dudes in Salt Lake. If a Christ based worship is what you want you should go elsewhere.
As for my relationship with Jesus? I'm afraid once I turn the same critical thinking to the life and ministry of Jesus I know what I am going to find. It scares me a little, but never again will I allow some one to tell me how or what I believe. I have been a mindless drone long enough. Like you so wisely pointed out I am responsible for what I believe.

Allright that was good fun, now I'm going upstairs to do my wife. Since she has traded masonic underwear that she can pull up to her shoulder blades for black bras and panties I can't get enough of her.
TMI? Sorry

[_Dr. Shades]

You weren't "blindsided" Willy Law, your leaders taught you the truth (assuming they followed Church materials).

Okay. I want to understand your point-of-view, so let me see if I have it straight:

It is a historical fact that Adolf Hitler was an exceptional painter in the watercolor medium. Now, let's say Person A has a young child who shows interest in painting and art from an early age. If Person A was to show his/her kid as many of Hitler's watercolor paintings as he/she could find, and then the kid likes what he sees and begins to idolize Hitler, then Simon Belmont thinks that Person A hasn't "blindsided" the kid, since Person A taught him the literal truth?

Just because there were some things that were left out doesn't mean you were lied to!

So, just because there were some things about Adolf Hitler that Person A left out--like Hitler's other career trajectories, for example--Then Simon Belmont doesn't believe that the kid was lied to?

[_Simon Belmont]

I never said it was less than 10 years old.
http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=05169209df38b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav

A simple search on LDS.org will reveal many many more.

You're not seriously trumpeting a 17 year old Ensign article as proof that the church does not hide it's embarrassing history are you?

That is the particular one I was reading, yes. Why does it matter if it is 17 years old? By that logic, anything the Church has done that is more than 10 years old is rendered moot. The Priesthood ban... doesn't exist. Polygamy... doesn't exist.

[_Simon Belmont]

You think that's strange you should see what I am going to do to my wife when she get's the kids to sleep upstairs. It will not be rated PG. I'll fill you in later.

I await this fill-in (just kidding).

What is the point in being "wholesome" when the only reason you are being wholesome is to avoid some awful punishment or eternal reward promised to you by the church?

That is not the reason the Church teaches good values.

How about teaching your kids to be good people because it is the right thing to do?

That is good, and if all parents did that we would live in a better world today.

Not because you if you do you will have many wives in heaven and if you don't you are going to some second rate heaven where you cannot have sex.

Wow! You've been reading some anti-Mormon literature.This is wholly, completely false and you should know better!

I gave an enormous portion of my life to the church based on a lie. I believed the fairy tale edition of the gospel and in turned became a lier myself.

You were not lied to! Again, did your third grade math teacher lie to you because she did not explain advanced calculus?

I have, thanks for asking.

Was it helpful? I hope so. It has been for me in the past.

We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth.

Please tell me how, what the church does with it's history (ex. not all truth is useful), does not fall under this definition of lying?
It willfully deceives by silence and telling only part of the truth, you have admitted to as much. This is lying according to their very own definition.

Church is a place of worship and learning the necessary truths for your salvation. If you want to learn more, it is up to you! I cannot stress this enough. Nothing the Church taught you was a lie.

Are you sure you are on the right board? Are you sure you are a supporter of the LDS church? Go to fast and testimony meeting and tell me how many testimonies mention Christ vs. Joseph Smith.
Before my disaffection I kept track one Sunday. Every single testimony mentioned Joseph Smith. All but two mentioned TSM. Only one person mentioned Christ other than to quickly close in-the-name-of-jesus-christ-amen.

So you would damn the entire Church because people in your particular ward said they believed Joseph Smith was a prophet of God?

If you want to learn of Christ you are in the wrong church Simon. The LDS church worships Joseph Smith and the crusty old white dudes in Salt Lake. If a Christ based worship is what you want you should go elsewhere.

Oh wow! You know better than this, unless you have been utterly brainwashed by mis-representative material.

Allright that was good fun, now I'm going upstairs to do my wife. Since she has traded masonic underwear that she can pull up to her shoulder blades for black bras and panties I can't get enough of her.
TMI? Sorry

A picture is worth a thousand words (just kidding, again).

By the way, I wholly agree that garments are not sexy at all!