KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

[_sock puppet]

kevin,beastie,chris,

Curious, what is your opinons of what the Book of Abraham and the KEP are? I'm sure you guy's covered it somewhere here but this is a loooong thread. What do you think was Smiths motive?

Thanks
MG

Mark, I'd be interested in your reaction to what I posted on page 17 (deep in the Wade Englund pages of this thread) as the 'purpose' of the KEP. You can find it here. I look forward to your response.

Sox

[_wenglund]

Most of the interested people here are banned from that thread, including myself.

I have openned a new thread so that you and some others can participate:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... tta-stone/

I will also be posting the fourth prong of my argument. later this afternoon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

This is, of course, one of the standard beastlie diagnoses. If I recall correctly, she diagnosed me with a similar narcissistic disorder, coupled with some form of misogynistic tendencies as well.

I love that the GSTP has its own "in-house" psychiatrist. This place certainly affords a fecund field for arm-chair diagnosticians.

Seriously, some issues aren't rocket science. If someone goes around claiming to have conversed with God, has himself crowned "king", thinks he can translate ancient documents- he has the classic signs of a delusional grandiosity disorder. Bipolar can mimic that at points, as well, and bipolar ran in Smith's family, with his own son being institutionalized due to the disorder. That's the main reason I remain open to that alternative. Of course, they didn't use that label back then, but his symptoms were clear.

Now, of course, believers won't accept that, because they think he did really see God, etc. But it's illogical to expect nonbelievers to NOT think Smith had some sort of psychiatric disorder.

As for you, it's possible that you don't have actual NPD, but just an oversized ego. I grant that.

by the way, I'm still waiting for your answer to a couple of questions:

I still want to know if you knew that Joseph Smith et al likely believed the Masonic characters WERE Egyptian and just neglected to mention it, or if you just didn't know.

I still want to know how you reconcile this statement of Nibley's with your theory:

It was not the habit of Joseph Smith to suppress his revelations. He made every effort to see to it that each excerpt from the book of Abraham was published to the world the moment it was presentable. "One cannot read the pages of the early periodicals of the Church," writes James R. Clark, " . . . without being impressed with the fact that to Joseph Smith, availability of the new revelations of God where people could read them and immediately profit by their instruction was more important than the technicality of having acomplete text of these ancient records at the start . . . " Hence, Clark notes, it was his custom to publish them in the form of extracts as he went along.

[_beastie]

Most of the interested people here are banned from that thread, including myself.

I have openned a new thread so that you and some others can participate:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... tta-stone/

I will also be posting the fourth prong of my argument. later this afternoon.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Good. I hope that, at some point, you plan on bringing up the fact that there is good reason to believe that Joseph Smith et al believed the Masonic figures actually WERE Egyptian. Will insists that is irrelevant to his thesis: perhaps you can figure out why it's irrelevant and figure out what the "something far more definitive" to reject Nibley's theory was.

You're welcome to use the citations I shared on this thread about the Masonic/Egyptian/Joseph connections. I don't care for walking on eggshells while enduring constant insults myself, so I prefer not to participate myself.

[_Kevin Graham]

It was not the habit of Joseph Smith to suppress his revelations. He made every effort to see to it that each excerpt from the book of Abraham was published to the world the moment it was presentable. "One cannot read the pages of the early periodicals of the Church," writes James R. Clark, " . . . without being impressed with the fact that to Joseph Smith, availability of the new revelations of God where people could read them and immediately profit by their instruction was more important than the technicality of having acomplete text of these ancient records at the start . . . " Hence, Clark notes, it was his custom to publish them in the form of extracts as he went along.

Oh now that's rich!

And here is poor Wee Willy trying to argue exactly the opposite, while pretending he's not really contradicting traditional LDS scholarship, but rather "the anti-Mormons." This citation flies in the face of any idiotic claim that the Book of Abraham was to be hidden in a cipher!

[_beastie]

It was not the habit of Joseph Smith to suppress his revelations. He made every effort to see to it that each excerpt from the book of Abraham was published to the world the moment it was presentable. "One cannot read the pages of the early periodicals of the Church," writes James R. Clark, " . . . without being impressed with the fact that to Joseph Smith, availability of the new revelations of God where people could read them and immediately profit by their instruction was more important than the technicality of having acomplete text of these ancient records at the start . . . " Hence, Clark notes, it was his custom to publish them in the form of extracts as he went along.

Oh now that's rich!

And here is poor Wee Willy trying to argue exactly the opposite, while pretending he's not really contradicting traditional LDS scholarship, but rather "the anti-Mormons." This citations flies in the face of any idiotic claim that the Book of Abraham was to be hidden in a cipher!

I've been trying to get Will to respond to that quote for pages.

I think it completely undermines Wee Willie's entire cipher theory, frankly. Once again he has to try to make Nibley look like an incompetent boob who didn't know what he was talking about, as well as not noticing nonEgyptian characters in the KEP, despite formal training in Egyptian AND forty years studying it.

This is just one of the many, many elements that makes this entire "Blair Witch Does KEP" (thanks, sockpuppet, for the perfect comparison) so immensely entertaining to critics. It's been an early Christmas, indeed. You have one of the more repellent personalities suddenly rocketing to fame (my god, could you ask for anything more: he brags about having his calling and election made sure, brags about his friends in high places, all while being vulgar and crude, particularly to women), and his theory is dependent on discrediting the most famous and revered LDS apologist ever, followers flocked to his theory, apparently thinking it was the Messiah of the doomed Book of Abraham ("we know what is at stake", thanks to Wee Willie for one of my favorite quotes from this episode), and it's riddled with flaws that even a Book of Abraham neophyte could recognize. The entire episode has been delicious to the taste, and highly desirable. ;)

[_Markk]

beastlie:

I think Smith likely suffered from some mental disorder like bipolar or a delusional grandiosity disorder.

This is, of course, one of the standard beastlie diagnoses. If I recall correctly, she diagnosed me with a similar narcissistic disorder, coupled with some form of misogynistic tendencies as well.

I love that the GSTP has its own "in-house" psychiatrist. This place certainly affords a fecund field for arm-chair diagnosticians.

Hi Will,

Why would it be necessary to code a language that no one could read in the first place?

Lok forward to your opinion on this.

MG

[_Markk]

Hi sock,

I got this far

..." Only when they had commenced doing so, did they realize that the papyri 'contained' the story of Abraham, Joseph, etc."

Not sure about this yet?


I'll read your post more carfully later on tonight, we are remodeling, but I did pull out my copy of the History of the Church and checked out your quote and found an interesting sidenote in Bold below?

Soon after this, some of the Saints at Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a discription of which will appear hereafter, and with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes.
I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joesph of Egypt, etc.,- a more full account of which will appear in it's place, as I proceed to examine and unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth.( bold , note to Joseph Smith intention of revealing his translation of the text, certainly no reference to coding the text, just the oposite, why code 'peace and truth')

gotta go my wife is cracking the whip to get back to work.

MG

[_William Schryver]

I've been trying to get Will to respond to that quote for pages.

I think it completely undermines Wee Willie's entire cipher theory, frankly. Once again he has to try to make Nibley look like an incompetent boob who didn't know what he was talking about, as well as not noticing nonEgyptian characters in the KEP, despite formal training in Egyptian AND forty years studying it.

This is just one of the many, many elements that makes this entire "Blair Witch Does KEP" (thanks, sockpuppet, for the perfect comparison) so immensely entertaining to critics. It's been an early Christmas, indeed. You have one of the more repellent personalities suddenly rocketing to fame (my god, could you ask for anything more: he brags about having his calling and election made sure, brags about his friends in high places, all while being vulgar and crude, particularly to women), and his theory is dependent on discrediting the most famous and revered LDS apologist ever, followers flocked to his theory, apparently thinking it was the Messiah of the doomed Book of Abraham ("we know what is at stake", thanks to Wee Willie for one of my favorite quotes from this episode), and it's riddled with flaws that even a Book of Abraham neophyte could recognize. The entire episode has been delicious to the taste, and highly desirable. ;)

Thanks for another excellent specimen for the "beastlie" folder (inside my larger "Great Apostate Quotes" folder).

So much is revealed about you in this brief little post.

As for the late Professor Nibley, I'm quite sure he is pleased as can be that it was a mere amateur that finally unraveled the long-standing mystery of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and that he would not be troubled in the least to have been, in the process, proven wrong about a few things.

[_Kevin Graham]

As for the late Professor Nibley, I'm quite sure he is pleased as can be that it was a mere amateur that finally unraveled the long-standing mystery of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and that he would not be troubled in the least to have been, in the process, proven wrong about a few things.

What did I tell you folks? Something so simple must be turned into a "mystery" out of necessity. The reason Nibley didn't see "enciphering" is because Nibley wasn't an idiot like Wilbur. That Wilbur is able to successfully sell this stupidity to his choir of apologists, only tells us how desperate they are to accept ANYTHING other than the obvious.

When faced with valid criticisms, Will has no recourse but to start talking about how we're a bunch of sad apostates, yaddie yaddie ya. He won't answer questions that undermine his thesis, and to be sure, he has no intentions of sharing with his loyal MAD audience the holes we've revealed in it.

I can't wait till this coward actually publishes something.