KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

[_Paul Osborne]

Tell me again how something that was originally KEY to your theory is now irrelevant?

Don't even bother with him. He is totally wasted and burning all his bridges like a crazed fool. He is probably drinking himself into a numb state.

William Schryver will go down in the footnotes as nothing more than a sorry excuse. You have to understand that he fried his brain on LSD and he will never be normal. Isn't that right, William, acid bro?



Paul O

[_beastie]

Tell me again how something that was originally KEY to your theory is now irrelevant?

Don't even bother with him. He is totally wasted and burning all his bridges like a crazed fool. He is probably drinking himself into a numb state.


Paul O

I do believe Will's theory has gotten way more attention than it deserves, which reflects the desperation of Book of Abraham apologia.

[_Paul Osborne]

I do believe Will's theory has gotten way more attention than it deserves, which reflects the desperation of Book of Abraham apologia.

Indeed, it was definately a flop. It was quite disappointing. I thought he had something far better and was hoping it would give me a run for the money. Oh, well.

Hey Beastie, next time acidhead-William insults you, kick his ass and give him this:



Maybe he will think it's a cipher!

Paul O

[_beastie]

Don't be gross.

[_Paul Osborne]

Don't be gross.

If you want to beat William Schyrver, then that is what you have to be: Gross. Otherwise, he will keep pounding you like a little school girl. He will twist you like a knot and poke you all over and manipulate you.

William is gross and you need to gross him out and beat him at his own game -- coupled with a valid argument of course.

Paul O

[_Markk]

Hi Will

Thanks for your response.

You wrote:

It is precisely because Joseph Smith had already received the English translation of the Book of Abraham (by revelation) that the need for encipherment arose.

Then you wrote:

After this exhibition Joseph the Seer saw these records and by the revelation of Jesus Christ could translate these records which gave an account of our forefathers, much of which was written By Joseph of Egypt who was sold by his brethren, which when all translated will be a pleasing history and of great value to the saints.

This quote does not say that Joseph Smith "already" received the Book of Abraham by revelation, you underlined only part of the cf. It says 1st...he could (present tense), 2nd...when all translated (future tense).

JW is saying that Joseph as seer could by revelation translate the documents, and in the future will translate them, and when completed (all) they would be "of great value to the saints."

So I guess my question still stands, and...how did Joseph "already" receive a "English translation of the Book of Abraham" by John W's above statement, and given there are accounts by Joseph Smith that he was still working on the translation?


Thanks

MG

2nd request

Third request

[_Paul Osborne]

Third request

I'm afraid that William Cipher-head has denied your request.



Paul O

[_William Schryver]

In any case, why do you (apparently) believe my thesis would be negatively affected at all if (for the sake of argument) we agreed some of them are similar to characters in the alleged "Anthon Transcript"?

Well for one thing, W. W. Phelps wasn't around to supply those characters when the Anthon transcript was created. But that's beside the point. You don't seem to understand what Wade conceded. It wasn't just that the characters show up in the Anthon transcript as well as the KEP, but that when they show up in the Anthon transcript their similarity to the Masonic cipher is the result of random chance. If chance works as an explanation for the transcript then it works just as well for the KEP. What's good for the goose, and all.

You've still failed to answer my question: assuming (for the sake of argument, since I don't concede the point) that all of what you're saying is true, how does this negatively affect my theses?

(Hint: it doesn't.)

[_sock puppet]

In any case, why do you (apparently) believe my thesis would be negatively affected at all if (for the sake of argument) we agreed some of them are similar to characters in the alleged "Anthon Transcript"?

Well for one thing, W. W. Phelps wasn't around to supply those characters when the Anthon transcript was created. But that's beside the point. You don't seem to understand what Wade conceded. It wasn't just that the characters show up in the Anthon transcript as well as the KEP, but that when they show up in the Anthon transcript their similarity to the Masonic cipher is the result of random chance. If chance works as an explanation for the transcript then it works just as well for the KEP. What's good for the goose, and all.

You've still failed to answer my question: assuming (for the sake of argument, since I don't concede the point) that all of what you're saying is true, how does this negatively affect my theses?

(Hint: it doesn't.)

Hi, Will,

Your theory, as I understand it, is that Smith and Phelps intentionally used the Masonic cipher characters in the A&G, knowing that they were not Egyptian. Ergo, their intentional use of known non-Egyptian characters belies the Nibley notion that Smith and Phelps were, with the A&G, trying to establish a 'Rosetta Stone'-like key to deciphering ancient Egyptian. You also theorize that the A&G was more a project of Phelps' than of Smith's.

If the use of those Masonic cipher characters by Smith and Phelps was random, not intentional, as Wade Englund says is the case with the Anthon 'Caractors' document, then why would one suppose that the use in the A&G was intentional and knowing they were not Egyptian?

Smith's (but not Phelps') involvement with the Anthon Caractors being "reformed Egyptian" casts serious doubt on your attempted use of Phelps as the fall guy in order to distance 'the Prophet' from the A&G.

I mean, what is the improbability level that Smith and Phelps both worked on the Egyptian papyri translation, and Smith had unintentionally used Masonic cipher characters as part of the Anthon Caractors, thinking they were 'reformed Egyptian' characters, but a few years later incident to that Egyptian papyri translation Phelps (without Smith, per Schryver) uses the same Masonic cipher characters, only this time does so intentionally and not believing them to be reformed Egyptian characters.

I think there might be a larger likelihood that you will in later life be serving a mission to teach the gospel to the inhabitants of the moon with Oliver B. Huntington

In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading "THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON," this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington:

"Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.

"As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.

"He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

"In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes." (The Young Woman's Journal, published by the Young Ladies' Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64

[_William Schryver]

sock puppet:

Your theory is ... /snip/

Wow!

Frankly, I don't know where to start. The only explanation I can come up with for your shockingly comprehensive failure to understand what I have argued is that you approached it with nothing more than a desire to discredit it rather than to objectively assess it.

Wow!

Let me therefore cite, directly from my script, the thesis of my paper:

I shall attempt today to establish the following thesis, expressed in two parts:

[Part 1] The explanations contained in the Alphabet documents are dependent on a pre-existing text of the first three chapters of the Book of Abraham. This dates the reception of the translation of these chapters to the period between July 4 and July 17, 1835, which is when the Alphabet project was commenced.

[Part 2] The greatly expanded character explanations contained in the Grammar documents are manifestly dependent not only on the first three chapters of the Book of Abraham, but also on the remainder of the revealed Book of Abraham, as well as the explanations to Facsimile #2. This roughly dates the reception of the translation of these things to a period between late 1835 and early 1836.

This thesis expresses what I would like to term the “essential elements of understanding” in respect to the Kirtland Egyptian Papers.

That the A&G therefore constitute some form of "substitution cipher" whereby these pre-existing English texts were to be rendered in something along the lines of a "pure language cipher" (consistent with their notions, valid or otherwise, of what "pure language" meant) is an important component of my explanation of their purpose, but the origins of the characters they used in these "cipher keys" is entirely irrelevant to the underlying explanation I propose, and is entirely secondary to the thesis, as I expressed it above.

I don't know how many more times I can attempt to make this clear--but I have already tried many times to do it, and it has proved utterly incapable of penetrating the biases and obtuseness of those who have sought to criticize what I have argued. Hence my resolve to cease any attempt to substantively argue my case in this forum.