KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

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_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

William Schryver wrote:The two things (one in blue, the other in green) are not related to one another.

Ciao ...


Really. So your realization that "these men were not focusing on translating the papyri" has nothing to do with your thesis.

Well, at least your logic, or lack thereof, is consistent.

[Part 1] The explanations contained in the Alphabet documents are dependent on a pre-existing text of the first three chapters of the Book of Abraham. This dates the reception of the translation of these chapters to the period between July 4 and July 17, 1835, which is when the Alphabet project was commenced.


Not inconsistent with Nibley's theory.

[Part 2] The greatly expanded character explanations contained in the Grammar documents are manifestly dependent not only on the first three chapters of the Book of Abraham, but also on the remainder of the revealed Book of Abraham, as well as the explanations to Facsimile #2. This roughly dates the reception of the translation of these things to a period between late 1835 and early 1836.


Not inconsistent with Nibley's theory.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

William Schryver wrote:I am confident it will prove to be the means by which your credibility in these matters will be forever reduced to disrepute.

I'll try not to bite my fingernails too much in the meantime.
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

William,

In your FAIR presentation, you seemed to argue that Joseph and Phelps viewed the "pure language" of the EAG documents as a modern construction, albeit operating according to grammatical principles they believed to be characteristic of ancient Egyptian. Is that still your view? Could you please elaborate as to which aspects you think they viewed as modern and which they viewed as ancient? Thanks,

-Chris
_Markk
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Markk »

Hi Will

Thanks for your response.

You wrote:

It is precisely because Joseph Smith had already received the English translation of the Book of Abraham (by revelation) that the need for encipherment arose.



Then you wrote:

After this exhibition Joseph the Seer saw these records and by the revelation of Jesus Christ could translate these records which gave an account of our forefathers, much of which was written By Joseph of Egypt who was sold by his brethren, which when all translated will be a pleasing history and of great value to the saints.



This quote does not say that Joseph Smith "already" received the Book of Abraham by revelation, you underlined only part of the cf. It says 1st...he could (present tense), 2nd...when all translated (future tense).

JW is saying that Joseph as seer could by revelation translate the documents, and in the future will translate them, and when completed (all) they would be "of great value to the saints."

So I guess my question still stands, and...how did Joseph "already" receive a "English translation of the Book of Abraham" by John W's above statement, and given there are accounts by Joseph Smith that he was still working on the translation?


Thanks

MG


2nd request


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Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello,

I think one of the reasons why this thread has gone on for 33 pages is people are trying to understand nonsense trying to understand nonsense. Mr. William "Gookie Cookie" Schryver's attempt to make sense of nonsense has, in turn, produce a staggering amount of nonsense all the while claiming to have made sense of the nonsense. When normal human beings have looked at all the nonsense and declared it as such they are in turn declared by the abnormal human beings as being nonsensical. You simply cannot make this stuff up.

Oh. Wait. Yes you can.

The Book of Abraham and its related documents are nonsense.

Mr. Phelp's efforts were nonsense.

Mr. William "Gookie Cookie" Schryver's "thesis" is nonsense.

The sheer amount of energy that went into all of this nonsense could have been expended on something useful, say, like vacuuming one's floor or watching a movie. If there's ever been an exercise in mental masturbation, my friends, you have an object lesson before you.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Markk
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Markk »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Hello,

I think one of the reasons why this thread has gone on for 33 pages is people are trying to understand nonsense trying to understand nonsense. Mr. William "Gookie Cookie" Schryver's attempt to make sense of nonsense has, in turn, produce a staggering amount of nonsense all the while claiming to have made sense of the nonsense. When normal human beings have looked at all the nonsense and declared it as such they are in turn declared by the abnormal human beings as being nonsensical. You simply cannot make this stuff up.

Oh. Wait. Yes you can.

The Book of Abraham and its related documents are nonsense.

Mr. Phelp's efforts were nonsense.

Mr. William "Gookie Cookie" Schryver's "thesis" is nonsense.

The sheer amount of energy that went into all of this nonsense could have been expended on something useful, say, like vacuuming one's floor or watching a movie. If there's ever been an exercise in mental masturbation, my friends, you have an object lesson before you.

V/R
Dr. Cam


About half way through this thread I wrote debating this issue is like debating what weave the emperors new clothes are. From what I have read, WS has stuck his foot in his mouth so many times it has turned into a debate of wit, rather than the substance of the theory in that his theory is indeed "nonsense" (did someone say that?)
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Pa Pa
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Pa Pa »

Kevin Graham wrote:** note** Graphics might take a few minutes to load

In October of 2006, and in light of Hauglid's recent presentation, I responded to his failure to share with his audience the argument for dictation. I posted a challenge for Will who was at the time serving as his internet lapdog. The irony is that I argued along the same lines that Daniel McClellan argues now. Daniel maintains that one cannot insist on a dictated text theory without explaning the evidence that suggests a copied text. There is nothing wrong with his argument here and I agree that nothing conclusive has been presented to fully explain the dittograph found at the very end in Ms1a.

However, there is a hypocritical flip side to this coin. Mr. Schryver and "Text-Critic" specialist Brian Hauglid had no problems pursuing the copyist theory based strictly on the dittograph, without explaining the evidence that strongly suggest the text was dictated. Now the big difference here is that I have put the dittograph on the backburner because it is just one piece of evidence in their favor. Also, it shows up at the tail end of the document, and it involves several anomalies that indicate something else was going on in the room at the time this portion was written. In my view, the possibilities as to why this occurs is just too many to entertain. Brent claims he has a better explanation that he will be publishing in his upcoming volume, and my experience with him tells me I won't be disappointed with what he presents.

Now by contrast, Will and Hauglid have neglected to address numerous pieces of evidence that strongly suggest the text was mostly transcribed via dictation. What follows is the same list of evidences I presented to Hauglid and Schryver four years ago, and I challenge Will to address them whenever he wanders over here. He never does. He only wants us to explain away his dittograph, which is the only piece of evidence he has provided to support the copyist theory.

Keep in mind that this is an incomplete list (before Brent and Chris say it ). But these should suffice to give people some idea what we're basing our argument on. So, without further ado:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #1 - Abr 1:4
Book of Abraham– “I sought for mine appointment unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God”
Ms1a – “I sought for mine appointment whereunto unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God”
Ms1b – “I sought for mine appointment whereunto unto the Priesthood according to the appointment of God”
Image
Image

Problem: "Whereunto" is crossed out and corrected in transition by both scribes. "Thine" is crossed out replaced with "mine" by both scribes. It is possible that "mine" was a secondary correction, but "unto" was clearly made in transition.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the text was dictated, the speaker corrected the scribes and they made the correction in transition.

2. In the Hauglid view, these men were copying some source document and either (a) decided to make a xerox copy of an error-ridden text or (b) they just happened to make the same exact mistakes while copying a non error-ridden sourcve document.

3. In the Schryver view these were "secondary emendations" (Will believes all similar corrections are the result of secondary emendations) which means someone came along afterwards and scribbled in the correction. This also means that in order for Will's theory to work, then the scribes had to have had the foreknowledge that the word "whereunto" would be corrected as soon as they finished writing it down, so they wrote it down anyway, and then proceeded to provide the corresponding corrections.

In which corner of the universe would either of these two scenarios be rational? But wait, there is plenty more of this.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #2 - Abr 1:9
Book of Abraham shagreel
Ms1a - shag = reel, shag-reel
Ms1b- shagreel, shagreel
Image

Problem: The two scribes do not transcribe this word the same way. According to Brent's analysis, "both Williams and Parrish correct inadvertent errors: Williams initially spelled the deity's name with a lowcase s and then corrected it to an uppercase S; Parrish intially spelled the name with two a's (i.e., "Shagral") he then erased the second "a" and overwrote it with to e's; note also that Parrish initally confused the homonyms son and sun."

Proposed Explanations:
1. In our view, the scribes were transcribing a dictated text, weren't sure how the word should appear on paper, and used their best judgment according to the manner in which the speaker pronunciated it. (The person dictating probably paused slightly in the middle of pronouncing the word, thus Williams divied the word with = and - respectively. He also mistook sun for son, as one might expect in a dictated text.)

2. In the Schryver/Hauglid view these two men were copying a source document, and Williams must have hallucinated for a brief moment, seeing "=" in the middle of the word.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #3 - Abr 1:11
Book of Abraham - “Onitah, one of the royal descent directly”
Ms1a - “Onitah, one of the xxxxxx royal descent directly”
Ms1b- “Onitah, one of the xxxxxx royal descent directly”
Image

Problem: xxxxx is an illegible word that was crossed out by both scribes

Proposed Explanations:
1. In our view, the speaker dictated the erroneous word first and then corrected himself after the scribes had already written it down.

2. In the Will/Hauglid view, the scribes were copying a source document and either (a) coincidentally copied the document incorrectly, exactly the same way or (b) they were told to make a xerox copy of an already error-ridden manuscript (meaning for some strange reason they decided they needed at least three copies of an error-ridden manuscript, from two different scribes)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #4 - Abr 1:12
Book of Abraham - “I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record”
Ms1a - “I will refer you to the representation that is at the commencement of this record.”
Ms1b - "I will refer you to the representation, that is lying before you at the commencement of this record"

Image

Problem: "that is lying before you" was crossed out by William Parrish in Ms1b and replaced with the correct text. A partial mistake was made by F.G. Williams in Ms1a.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the scribes were transcribing a dictated text when the speaker stopped to correct an erroneous translation. Parrish has to erase four words and Williams only two words, because Parrish was writing at a slightly faster pace.

2.. In the Schryver/Hauglid view, this entire phrase was a secondary addition to the text, and probably isn't original to Joseph Smith's translation at all. Which means the argument used to connect the Sensen text to the Book of Abraham can be dispensed with. Long live the missing roll!

*** Brent Metcalfe responded to this with what I believe was conclusive text-critical evidence that the emendation was in transition, and not secondary. Here is the link to the debate over that argument: (http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... e__st__180)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #5 - Abr 1:13
Book of Abraham - bedstead
Ms1a – bedsted
Ms1b – bed stead
Image

Problem: These words are spelled differently by each scribe.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the scribes spelled the words according to their own understanding of the pronunciation, and not according to visual confirmation.

2. In the Schryver/Hauglid view, even though the scribes were supposedly copying the same source document, they copied the text down in two different ways.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #6 - Abr 1:17
Book of Abraham – “And this because they have turned their hearts away from me”
Ms1a - “And this because their hearts are turned they have turned their hearts away from me”
Ms1b - “And this because their hearts are turn they have turned their hearts away from me”
Image

Problem: These four words were scratched out and replaced with corrected text.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the scribes were halted in the middle of dictation as the speaker provided the corrected translation. Parrish did not complete the word "turned" when the speaker stopped them in mid-sentence. By cutting the word short by two letters (ed), this suggests this wasn't a copied text. People don't generally correct a miscopied text until the entire word is complete and the error becomes apparent.

2. In the Schryver/Hauglid view, Williams and Parrish again make the same mistake coincidentally as they are copying from a source document. And again their errors are not identical. They also shared another hallucination, as they mistook "their hearts are turned" for "they have turned their hearts away."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #7 - Abr 1:26
BoA- “and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him”
Ms1b – “and also of Noah, his father, xx xx xxx xxxx who blessed him”
Ms1b – “and also of Noah, his father, xx xx xxx xxxx who blessed him”
Image

Problem: Both scribes wrote four illegible words before crossing them out and replacing them with the corrected text.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the text was dictated and the scribes were corrected in mid-sentence and the corrected text was placed in transition.

2. In the Schryver/Hauglid view, these scribes were copying from the same source document and either (a) coincidentally copied the text incorrectly, the exact same way or (b) were providing a xerox copy of an error-ridden document.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dictation Evidence #8 - Abr 1:26
Book of Abraham kinsfolk, Ms1a – kinsfolk,
Ms1b – kin folks
Image

Problem: These words are spelled differently by each scribe.

Proposed Explanations:

1. In our view, the scribes spelled the words according to their own understanding of the pronunciation, and not according to visual confirmation.

2. In the Schryver/Hauglid view, even though the scribes were supposedly copying the same source document, they copied the text down in two different ways.

---------------------------------------------------------

I hope this sheds further understanding on why the "critics" argue Ms1a and Ms1b were simultaneously dictated. Our position is that Ms2 was a cleaner copy of Ms1b and Ms3 represents the 1842 printers manuscript.

You know we have a mutual friend…Matt Ledbetter, and I hear you may move here. But if you mess with his testimony, you mess with me.
_beastie
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _beastie »

Pa Pa wrote:You know we have a mutual friend…Matt Ledbetter, and I hear you may move here. But if you mess with his testimony, you mess with me.


Gee, and here I was under the impression that Will's argument was a total slam dunk (mount doom, yadda yadda yadda)....but apparently Matt Ledbetter's testimony is too fragile to handle the response to the slam dunk.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Kevin Graham
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Kevin Graham »

If Matt's testimony is struggling, it isn't because of anything I've said.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Pa Pa wrote:You know we have a mutual friend…Matt Ledbetter, and I hear you may move here. But if you mess with his testimony, you mess with me.

Why not skip the middleman and just reinforce Matt's testimony yourself? Disprove that about which he's struggling.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
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