Ghosts?

[_Buffalo]

I've also had the experiences where those beyond the veil have confirmed to me that this god-awful Mormon church is true. So many events that I lost count.

Particularly when channelling during priesthood blessings. Sometimes I would even heal people (this ran in my family). There were many instances where I would say things that would not otherwise have crossed my mind. Things I would not have regarded if they had not flowed through me. Revealing a person's character and prophesying their future, messages from the Mormon god (mostly of his love for them - I think these were simply dead relatives posing), bringing a great deal of peace into the room, healing etc. After such channelling I would feel nearly and sometimes entirely exhausted. It used to blow me (and others) away the things I would say and the things that would occur. I enjoyed it at the time. It was quite humbling. I had to be "Mormon clean" to make it work. I would prepare myself by getting square with the Mormon god. I had to let go of my pride, my baggage and my preconceived notions. Just a committment to say whatever flowed through me. This was one reason why I knew early on that there was no way in hell, Joseph Smith was capable of the freeflow of revelation.

by the way, the moment I clicked the "enter" button to find out how many children Joseph and Emma had on the church's Geneological site this ability vanished - In other words's whoever they were that spoke through me. This was the first day of my inquisitiveness several years ago - the study that would lead me straightway out of the church. I haven't had the ability since. Now I would prefer not to have it. As I reflect back, it was misleading and meddling.

Yeah, no doubt, some of my dead relatives are yet deluded. Why else would they linger after seeing that the Mormon hereafter is not what they are experiencing. I'm sure many of them are meddling out of sheer denial.

I would submit, no offense intended, that all of this was in your head. There are no ghosts, there is no afterlife, there is no revelation. Human psychology is complex and confusing.

I realize this is probably offensive, but I don't mean it to be.

[_Simon Belmont]

I would submit, no offense intended, that all of this was in your head. There are no ghosts, there is no afterlife, there is no revelation. Human psychology is complex and confusing.

I realize this is probably offensive, but I don't mean it to be.

Again, the atheist presumes to know everything about the nature of the cosmos. Definitively declaring "There are no ghosts, there is no afterlife, there is no revelation." Well, I challenge you to prove that assertion.

[_Inconceivable]

So many events that I lost count.

I would submit, no offense intended, that all of this was in your head. There are no ghosts, there is no afterlife, there is no revelation. Human psychology is complex and confusing.

I realize this is probably offensive, but I don't mean it to be.

Perhaps it would have been better for me never to have experienced these things first hand. I've wished that.

Things would be much less confusing and easier to figure out if I had your limited perspective. It all exists out there. If you look for it, you'll eventually run into the real stuff.

Like I always tell my kids when they can't find the broom to sweep the floor:

There's a reason why the robbers never find the cops.

[_Buffalo]

Again, the atheist presumes to know everything about the nature of the cosmos. Definitively declaring "There are no ghosts, there is no afterlife, there is no revelation." Well, I challenge you to prove that assertion.

There is no evidence whatsoever for any of those things. That is all the evidence anyone should need. To the contrary, we know that consciousness cannot be sustained when certain conditions are not present in the brain. When the brain dies, there is no consciousness. Therefore your relations cannot communicate to you from beyond the grave.

Often atheists will say that the impetus is on believers to prove their positive claims, which believers cannot do. While that is true, in practical terms you CAN disprove the claims of believers by simply pointing out that there is no evidence in the slightest for their beliefs. If any of that were true, there'd be some evidence for it. There is not. That should be proof enough for anyone thinking rationally about the subject.

[_Buffalo]

Perhaps it would have been better for me never to have experienced these things first hand. I've wished that.

Things would be much less confusing and easier to figure out if I had your limited perspective. It all exists out there. If you look for it, you'll eventually run into the real stuff.

Like I always tell my kids when they can't find the broom to sweep the floor:

There's a reason why the robbers never find the cops.

I would submit that it's all in your head, and that there is a non-magical explanation for your emotional experiences with what you supposed was the supernatural.

If such things were real, we would have some non-subjective evidence for them.

[_Dr. Shades]

Shades, here is the previous thread:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... f=1&t=2519

Wow. Very interesting stuff, The Nehor.

Thank you for sharing.

[_Simon Belmont]

There is no evidence whatsoever for any of those things.

Yes there is. Sightings have been reported by hundreds of thousands of people over the course of time. In addition, we have things like EVP.

To the contrary, we know that consciousness cannot be sustained when certain conditions are not present in the brain. When the brain dies, there is no consciousness. Therefore your relations cannot communicate to you from beyond the grave.

Oh, so you have invented a device or a method by which we can measure consciousness? You must immediately contact the leading neuroscience research institutions about this scientific breakthrough! Please, allow me to ask a few questions about your discovery:

• What is the exact point at which consciousness enters a human fetus?
• Is consciousness made of energy, matter, or something else altogether?
• If it is made of energy, do the normal laws of physics apply to it, or does it exist outside of these laws (energy cannot be destroyed or created)?

While that is true, in practical terms you CAN disprove the claims of believers by simply pointing out that there is no evidence in the slightest for their beliefs.

Yes there is. Subjective evidence.

If any of that were true, there'd be some evidence for it. There is not. That should be proof enough for anyone thinking rationally about the subject.

I am sorry, Buffalo, but it appears that you are very uninformed about this subject. Correct me if I am wrong.

[_Darth J]

What's great about this thread is that if you think ghosts are stupid or think ghosts are interesting, you can express your position either way by going "Boo!"

[_Inconceivable]

If such things were real, we would have some non-subjective evidence for them.

Buffalo,
You're probably better off thinking you're right. Why add another stumper to the many things that make little sense in our lives, eh?

No offence taken.

[_Buffalo]

Yes there is. Sightings have been reported by hundreds of thousands of people over the course of time. In addition, we have things like EVP.

I'm sorry, I should have said "objective, credible evidence." I thought that was implied by my stance. You can find eye witness accounts for any nonsense, from alien abductions to appearances of the Virgin Mother and Elvis Presley.

Oh, so you have invented a device or a method by which we can measure consciousness? You must immediately contact the leading neuroscience research institutions about this scientific breakthrough!

Well, I didn't invent it, but the device exists. It's called an EEG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroencephalography

Yes there is. Subjective evidence.

That is not credible evidence. Again, you can find eye witness testimony for any nutty belief you wish. Where is the physical evidence?

I am sorry, Buffalo, but it appears that you are very uninformed about this subject. Correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong. Consider yourself corrected.