"Drastic Measures Were Called For"

[_mentalgymnast]

In a conference talk October a year ago in Jeffery Holland claimed he knew Joseph Smith would not have read the Book of Mormon (and thereby mock God) in Carthage if it were a fraud knowing they were to die soon—proving to Holland it indeed is not a fraud. I have argued that Joseph Smith actually didn't he would die that June 27th— but even if he did, I think history has shown that people will do just about anything to keep the illusion going, even with their backs against the wall.

Could you point me towards something Joseph Smith said that could act as the "smoking gun" demonstrating that he was perpetuating a fraud? You're willing to chalk up Elder Holland's conclusions as being suspect without so much as a blink of the eye. Concluding, off hand and as of a matter of fact, that Elder Holland is mistaken and that "history shows" this or that does not have any evidential value in showing that Joseph Smith was a fraud and knew it. So where's the beef?

Show that Joseph Smith was perpetuating an illusion vs. acting with integrity and sincerity. He should have given himself away somewhere in his writings. Come up with something, say, as interesting as Elder Holland's example you referenced.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

In a conference talk October a year ago in Jeffery Holland claimed he knew Joseph Smith would not have read the Book of Mormon (and thereby mock God) in Carthage if it were a fraud knowing they were to die soon—proving to Holland it indeed is not a fraud. I have argued that Joseph Smith actually didn't he would die that June 27th— but even if he did, I think history has shown that people will do just about anything to keep the illusion going, even with their backs against the wall.

Elder Holland and the rest of our leaders, and a huge majority of our members, do not... do NOT... want to know about anything about Joseph that conflicts with the one-dimensional stand up cut out that passes for reality in SLCentral.

Real reality bites.

Do you have the inside scoop on how much Elder Holland does or does not know regarding Joseph Smith?

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

Could you point me towards something Joseph Smith said that could act as the "smoking gun" demonstrating that he was perpetuating a fraud? You're willing to chalk up Elder Holland's conclusions as being suspect without so much as a blink of the eye. Concluding, off hand and as of a matter of fact, that Elder Holland is mistaken and that "history shows" this or that does not have any evidential value in showing that Joseph Smith was a fraud and knew it. So where's the beef?

Show that Joseph Smith was perpetuating an illusion vs. acting with integrity and sincerity. He should have given himself away somewhere in his writings. Come up with something, say, as interesting as Elder Holland's example you referenced.

Regards,
MG

I believe there was a thread that discussed Elder Hollands talk and what he got wrong about it. If someone knows where it is that may help.

There is a lot of evidence for Joseph perpetuating a fraud. The Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, kinderhook plates, Greek Psalter, polygamy, etc.

[Guest]

Could you point me towards something Joseph Smith said that could act as the "smoking gun" demonstrating that he was perpetuating a fraud? You're willing to chalk up Elder Holland's conclusions as being suspect without so much as a blink of the eye. Concluding, off hand and as of a matter of fact, that Elder Holland is mistaken and that "history shows" this or that does not have any evidential value in showing that Joseph Smith was a fraud and knew it. So where's the beef?

Show that Joseph Smith was perpetuating an illusion vs. acting with integrity and sincerity. He should have given himself away somewhere in his writings. Come up with something, say, as interesting as Elder Holland's example you referenced.

Regards,
MG

mentalgymnast,

just a few observations off the top of my head... (Hope you don't mind me butting in here...)

First, when Abinidi is speaking, about 150 years before Christ was born, he says the following to King Noah and his Priests:

"And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption." (Mosiah 16:6)

This is a clear marker of the narrator losing his place in the chronology of the fiction he is extemporaneously creating. But since Smith had made clear, either implicitly or explicitly, that the stone gave his words verbatim, Smith could not reverse course once he made the mistake of putting the opening clause in the past-tense. He had to forge ahead, adding the ungainly (and improbable, if you believe the Nephite rationale for using Reformed Egyptian on Gold Plates: efficient use of limited space) clause "Speaking of things to come as though they had already come".

Second, when the 116 pages were lost, Smith's way forward was to announce the fortuitous presence of a second set of plates... plates which would contain the same basic story, but worded in a slightly different way. He worried openly that the men who stole the 116 pages would alter them and use these alterations against him, calling him a fraud.

Throughout his prophetic career, Smith had used his seer stones to find hidden treasures, other seer stones, needles in haystacks (literally), as well as the presence of treasures in distant cities. He had used the stone to receive revelations from God. Why, then, did he not use his stone to either verify or dismiss this supposed danger?

When I was a true believer, I never thought this through, even once. Only once I saw irrefutable evidence of Smith's other misdeeds did this event snap into sharp focus for the clear fraud that it truly was.

[_Themis]

I think the Hoffman fraud is the most important issue in my lifetime in which the power of discernment would have been a very good idea, but was totally absent.

[_Dr. Shades]

Could you point me towards something Joseph Smith said that could act as the "smoking gun" demonstrating that he was perpetuating a fraud?

The Book of Abraham.

[_mentalgymnast]

Fence Sitter said:

Fawn Brodie has been widely ridiculed by apologists for suggesting that perhaps Joseph stuck with the deception because he didn't want to be exposed to Emma and everyone else he cared about. For me, that explanation seems a little more plausible now.

I mentioned Emma and polygamy because I think she is a great example of maintaining appearances to the contrary. She did this through her denial of what she knew to be true. After Joseph Smith died she steadfastly denied that he had ever practiced polygamy, not to protect Joseph in my opinion, but to elevate her own status as someone who would not have allowed such a thing to transpire.

MG:
That's a possibility. When all is said and done, however, Emma died having received the ordinance of baptism and having been sealed to her husband and receiving her second anointing. Anything that remains to be sorted out with Emma will happen out of our mortal view. We can only hyperventilate or hypothesize.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Could you point me towards something Joseph Smith said that could act as the "smoking gun" demonstrating that he was perpetuating a fraud?

The Book of Abraham.

Shades and beefcalf, I'm referring to any personal writings (correspondence, newspaper clippings, journal entries, meeting minutes, etc.) of Joseph Smith or his scribes where he as a matter of fact says that he is perpetuating a fraud. His personal correspondence and other journal entries, etc., show that he was sincere and believed in his mission being from God. The post I was responding to was saying that as a matter of fact, Joseph Smith must having known he was involved in a fraud. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to extract that conclusion from his personal writings.

Regards,
MG

[_Dr. Shades]

Shades and beefcalf, I'm referring to any personal writings . . . of Joseph Smith or his scribes where he as a matter of fact says that he is perpetuating a fraud.

Do we have any personal writings of Bernie Madoff from before he got caught where he as a matter of fact says that he is perpetuating a fraud?

Do we have any personal writings of Mark Hofmann from before he got caught where he as a matter of fact says that he is perpetuating a fraud?

[_beefcalf]

Shades and beefcalf, I'm referring to any personal writings (correspondence, newspaper clippings, journal entries, meeting minutes, etc.) of Joseph Smith or his scribes where he as a matter of fact says that he is perpetuating a fraud. His personal correspondence and other journal entries, etc., show that he was sincere and believed in his mission being from God.

I think his letter to Nancy Rigdon, while not an example of him admitting outright that he is a fraud, does well to inform us of his true nature. As does his outright deception in denying the facts of the letter when confronted by the poor girl's father and his 2nd-in-command, Sydney Ridgon.