Christianity

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_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
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Re: Christianity

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Buffalo wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:
Isaiah 66:24

24 And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.


Dan 12:2

2Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Neither of those things are describing hell.


Yes they are.

Doesn't it bother you that these doctrines evolved over time, just the same as any other man-made philosophy?


No, since I don't expect them to have a complete picture of the afterlife before Christ.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Molok
_Emeritus
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Re: Christianity

Post by _Molok »

Buffalo I have a serious question.. were you this obnoxious and sure of yourself when you were a TBM?
_mikwut
_Emeritus
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Re: Christianity

Post by _mikwut »

Hi Buffalo, (I still owe you a response from back in our other thread I'm sorry about that real life always gets the better of me on the boards)

I'm glad you can acknowledge that most Christians are out of harmony with the Bible. And I'm afraid your "interpretations" (distortions) can't compete with the clear words of your savior on this subject.


Oh they most certainly can Buffalo. I'm sure MsJack can clearly answer your challenge but I just couldn't let this go much longer. Many Christians are out of harmony with the Bible, you are correct, so are many of the "chrildren" of those who are out of harmony with the Bible and find themselves as agnostics or atheists with the same disharmony towards the scripture, like yourself If I might be so bold. If the clear words of the Savior is the agreed upon standard let's begin,

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

You obviously have just foisted this quip unto a broader misunderstanding that you carry. If the context of what is said here is taken into consideration your surely wrong. As I will point out below the general context of Christ's message is inclusivist and all of that would have to be ignored to understand the scripture you refer to in how you would wish us to understand it.

Immediate context of the verse you rely on is from the Sermon on the Mount and concerns faith and not judging others which is in a deep contrast to the judgmentalism of the Pharisees. This was early in Christs ministry and his disciples were eager to convert the whole world. That over enthusiastic spirit was quelled by Christ in preparing them that during that present age (and most ages) most would reject the gospel and just a few would come to Christ - that is what the verse means. It isn't contextually sensible to understand the verse as being about eternal salvific status but the current epistemological reality of the many that will not join as opposed to the few that will.

Neal Punt has made an especially helpful comment upon this Scripture:

'The "small gate," "narrow road," and "few" finding convey the intrinsic value of salvation, not the extent of it's availability. These expressions have the same meaning as finding the "hidden treasure" and selling everything else in order to purchase the "pearl of great value." These figures of speech are intended to teach us to covet salvation as a rare discovery and an invaluable treasure.' (chapter 22, page 219, 'A Theology of Inclusivism' - 2008.)

Jesus said very few will be saved


No he didn't, John Calvin might have. His parables are overwhelming inclusivist and his stance contra. the Pharisees makes no sense if he were the exclusivist you want us to believe. He attacks the the concept that only the Jews are the true people of God and he attacks notions of assumed privilege. He teaches strikingly against the pharisees model that many that are invited won't attend and many that aren't will eat at the king's feast. Luke 14:21-24.

Your sadistic comment is pure rhetoric and so I won't respond.

my regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

Calculus Crusader wrote:
Yes they are.

No, since I don't expect them to have a complete picture of the afterlife before Christ.


Sorry, I forgot you're the closest thing to God on this forum. Your decree is enough! No evidence required.

So it doesn't bother you that your belief system resembles every other competing belief system and philosophy in the way it has evolved and changed and contradicted itself?

Does it bother you that God behaves exactly as if he didn't exist?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

Molok wrote:Buffalo I have a serious question.. were you this obnoxious and sure of yourself when you were a TBM?


No, never. Then again, the anonymity of the internet makes me more obnoxious than I would otherwise be - as I'm sure is the case for Crusader.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

mikwut wrote:Hi Buffalo, (I still owe you a response from back in our other thread I'm sorry about that real life always gets the better of me on the boards)

I'm glad you can acknowledge that most Christians are out of harmony with the Bible. And I'm afraid your "interpretations" (distortions) can't compete with the clear words of your savior on this subject.


Oh they most certainly can Buffalo. I'm sure MsJack can clearly answer your challenge but I just couldn't let this go much longer. Many Christians are out of harmony with the Bible, you are correct, so are many of the "chrildren" of those who are out of harmony with the Bible and find themselves as agnostics or atheists with the same disharmony towards the scripture, like yourself If I might be so bold. If the clear words of the Savior is the agreed upon standard let's begin,

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

You obviously have just foisted this quip unto a broader misunderstanding that you carry. If the context of what is said here is taken into consideration your surely wrong. As I will point out below the general context of Christ's message is inclusivist and all of that would have to be ignored to understand the scripture you refer to in how you would wish us to understand it.

Immediate context of the verse you rely on is from the Sermon on the Mount and concerns faith and not judging others which is in a deep contrast to the judgmentalism of the Pharisees. This was early in Christs ministry and his disciples were eager to convert the whole world. That over enthusiastic spirit was quelled by Christ in preparing them that during that present age (and most ages) most would reject the gospel and just a few would come to Christ - that is what the verse means. It isn't contextually sensible to understand the verse as being about eternal salvific status but the current epistemological reality of the many that will not join as opposed to the few that will.

Neal Punt has made an especially helpful comment upon this Scripture:

'The "small gate," "narrow road," and "few" finding convey the intrinsic value of salvation, not the extent of it's availability. These expressions have the same meaning as finding the "hidden treasure" and selling everything else in order to purchase the "pearl of great value." These figures of speech are intended to teach us to covet salvation as a rare discovery and an invaluable treasure.' (chapter 22, page 219, 'A Theology of Inclusivism' - 2008.)

Jesus said very few will be saved


No he didn't, John Calvin might have. His parables are overwhelming inclusivist and his stance contra. the Pharisees makes no sense if he were the exclusivist you want us to believe. He attacks the the concept that only the Jews are the true people of God and he attacks notions of assumed privilege. He teaches strikingly against the pharisees model that many that are invited won't attend and many that aren't will eat at the king's feast. Luke 14:21-24.

Your sadistic comment is pure rhetoric and so I won't respond.

my regards, mikwut


Neal Punt's interpretation is based on information that exists no where in any of the words expressed by Jesus. He plucked it wholly from the air, not from Jesus' words. Again, Christian interpretation is just a matter of redefining the text to conform to the dogma of the believers. It is not an honest attempt to get at the meaning of the scriptures, but rather an attempt to subvert their meaning until they can bring it into harmony with their own conflicting beliefs.

Jesus' words are clear - the majority will not find salvation, but rather destruction. Eternal torture on a technicality. That doesn't seem fair to me.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Molok
_Emeritus
Posts: 1832
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:31 am

Re: Christianity

Post by _Molok »

Buffalo wrote:
Molok wrote:Buffalo I have a serious question.. were you this obnoxious and sure of yourself when you were a TBM?


No, never. Then again, the anonymity of the internet makes me more obnoxious than I would otherwise be - as I'm sure is the case for Crusader.

Well ok I can understand that. You seem like you have a lot of anger at religion in general, but maybe I'm. Just misreading you. I was kind of the opposite of you, I guess. When I was a christian, I. Was very cocksure of myself and had no problem arguing with anyone about why their particular interpretation was wrong. Losing my religion has actually mellowed me out a lot more, funnily enough.
_Calculus Crusader
_Emeritus
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Christianity

Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Buffalo wrote:
No, never. Then again, the anonymity of the internet makes me more obnoxious than I would otherwise be - as I'm sure is the case for Crusader.


That's true. I'm slightly less of a dick in person.
Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei

(I lost access to my Milesius account, so I had to retrieve this one from the mothballs.)
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

Molok wrote:Well ok I can understand that. You seem like you have a lot of anger at religion in general, but maybe I'm. Just misreading you. I was kind of the opposite of you, I guess. When I was a christian, I. Was very cocksure of myself and had no problem arguing with anyone about why their particular interpretation was wrong. Losing my religion has actually mellowed me out a lot more, funnily enough.


I do have some anger at religion in general. I'm sure I'll mellow out over time.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

Calculus Crusader wrote:
That's true. I'm slightly less of a dick in person.


I'm glad that both of us are slightly nicer people in real life. ;)
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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