What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

[_Nevo]

I think Koresh and Bent were both sincere, which is a problem for me since they all seem so similar. How can I say that Joseph was actually inspired by God and the others weren't?

How can you say that Jesus was actually inspired by God and not Judas the Galilean or Theudas or Simon bar Kokhba or any of the other messianic claimants of his era? What about Honi the Circle-Drawer or Apollonius of Tyana? One has to pick and choose.

Nevo, most people don't object to Joseph practicing polygamy, it was the way he practiced it. Yeah, I can safely say that the God I learned about growing up in the Church would never command or countenance the way Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.

Okay, but I'm curious to know what you would have done differently. If you were Joseph Smith in 1841 in Nauvoo, and you believed that God wanted you to inaugurate this new marriage system (and you believed that you would be destroyed if you didn't) and you knew that Emma (and probably many of your closest associates) would have none of it, how would you have gone about it?

Could you have done without secrecy and deception and still kept the Church together? Kept your family together? (By the way, do people imagine that Emma would have been better off if Joseph had practiced polygamy openly, in full public view? I think not.)

Could you have persuaded people to embrace something that was so revolting to their feelings without applying any pressure at all?

Perhaps you could have. Perhaps.

[_Kishkumen]

How can you say that Jesus was actually inspired by God and not Judas the Galilean or Theudas or Simon bar Kokhba or any of the other messianic claimants of his era? What about Honi the Circle-Drawer or Apollonius of Tyana? One has to pick and choose.

Or Eunus of Syria? But why does one have to choose? You henotheists are so predictable. ;-)

Okay, but I'm curious to know what you would have done differently. If you were Joseph Smith in 1841 in Nauvoo, and you believed that God wanted you to inaugurate this new marriage system (and you believed that you would be destroyed if you didn't) and you knew that Emma (and probably many of your closest associates) would have none of it, how would you have gone about it?

Yeah, I see your point. It was probably better to lie to her and defy the instructions of God than to be honest to her and defy the instructions of God.

Could you have persuaded people to embrace something that was so revolting to their feelings without applying any pressure at all?

Perhaps you could have. Perhaps.

Yeah, I doubt he could have done better than threatening people with the loss of their salvation like Joseph did. You're undoubtedly right. Lying and manipulation were probably necessary. Secretly marrying other people's wives, two sisters in the same family, the teenage daughters of followers, lying about it to Emma... all of these things were probably necessary, even though they seem so out of keeping with D&C 132. But you are probably correct that it is asking a little much of the prophet to expect him to adhere to the revelations of God that he is receiving lest that frustrate his ability to do what God is commanding him to do.

It is all just such a dilly of a pickle to be sure.

[_beefcalf]

If you were Joseph Smith in 1841 in Nauvoo, and you believed that God wanted you to inaugurate this new marriage system (and you believed that you would be destroyed if you didn't) and you knew that Emma (and probably many of your closest associates) would have none of it, how would you have gone about it?

I don't think many critics of Smith would agree with this assumption you've made.

I believe that Smith was engaging in adultery and created the revelations to justify it. Boom. No need to suppose Smith was in some sort of a no-win situation and that God himself placed him there.

[_moksha]

Surely it is conceivable that one could accuse the man who married some 30 odd women, some of them teenagers, some sisters, and some already married, of being "addicted to vice."

An honest mistake, perhaps. But even Brodie recognized, as MCB pointed out a few weeks ago, that "Joseph was no careless libertine...there was too much of the Puritan in him."

This is an excellent point. His followers were also puritanical in their outlook toward sex outside of monogamy. Thus the dilemma was created of how to satisfy the cravings for the sensual while at the same time not alienating his followers. Secrecy was needed for the most part, but Hyrum's suggestion of polygamy as a way to get around the issue of others learning about these trysts was brilliant. It both satisfied those followers own puritanical hesitancies, and recruited co-conspirators who could assist in promoting even more trysts as well as keeping them secret.

[_Kishkumen]

This is an excellent point. His followers were also puritanical in their outlook toward sex outside of monogamy. Thus the dilemma was created of how to satisfy the cravings for the sensual while at the same time not alienating his followers. Secrecy was needed for the most part, but Hyrum's suggestion of polygamy as a way to get around the issue of others learning about these trysts was brilliant. It both satisfied those followers own puritanical hesitancies, and recruited co-conspirators who could assist in promoting even more trysts as well as keeping them secret.

If only you were to replace "satisfy cravings for the sensual" with "stave off angelic assassins bearing swords" (not that there isn't a certain Freudian connection!), you'd really be onto something!

[_Nevo]

Yeah, I doubt he could have done better than threatening people with the loss of their salvation like Joseph did. You're undoubtedly right.

Well, I think Joseph's threatening people with the loss of their salvation is somewhat mitigated by the likelihood (pace beefcalf) that he believed his own salvation was in jeopardy if he failed to live this law (your "angelic assassins bearing swords").

Commenting on the cholera epidemic that swept through Zion's Camp, and Joseph's belief that this punishment had been sent by God, Richard Bushman remarked:

"No revelation told Joseph that God had sent the cholera. He read his own ideas about Deity into the event.... In the camp's extremity, Joseph seems to have called up a God out of his Puritan past, a God who would destroy His own people if they neglected his commands. This was the God, we must assume, to whom Joseph felt responsible for establishing Zion and preparing his people for exaltation, a God harsh and implacable, inflicting punishment on those who failed" (Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling, 246).

Perhaps this doesn't excuse Joseph's strong-arm tactics, but it does help to explain them. (And not to sound like a broken record but it should be noted that Jesus also threatened people with the loss of their salvation if they disobeyed God's laws.)

Secretly marrying other people's wives, two sisters in the same family, the teenage daughters of followers...

How else should he have done it? Taken out an ad in the classifieds? He married women that he had access to. He never married any woman without her full consent, and he often sought the consent of family members as well. Ah, but he married sisters! So did half of the polygamists in Nauvoo. Probably more than half, actually—I haven't counted. (There were 196 male polygamists and 717 wives in Nauvoo.) But some were teenagers! So were a lot of brides at the time.

[_Kishkumen]

Well, I think Joseph's threatening people with the loss of their salvation is somewhat mitigated by the likelihood (pace beefcalf) that he believed his own salvation was in jeopardy if he failed to live this law.

Maybe he should have added the fact that his salvation was on the line too! ("If you don't marry me, God will be very angry with both of us!") He was obviously being kind by leaving that detail out. You don't want to overplay your hand, after all.

"No revelation told Joseph that God had sent the cholera. He read his own ideas about Deity into the event.... In the camp's extremity, Joseph seems to have called up a God out of his Puritan past, a God who would destroy His own people if they neglected his commands. This was the God, we must assume, to whom Joseph felt responsible for establishing Zion and preparing his people for exaltation, a God harsh and implacable, inflicting punishment on those who failed" (Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling, 246).

Yes. I feel more comfortable basing my life on the teachings of a guy whose judgments about the mind of Deity were sometimes founded on a flaky reading of his Puritan roots. It is so much more comforting than the notion that God really was talking to him. I wish I were kidding.

Perhaps this doesn't excuse Joseph's strong-arm tactics, but it helps to explain them. (And not to sound like a broken record but it should be noted that Jesus also threatened people with the loss of their salvation if they disobeyed God's laws.)

But the element of sleeping with Jesus was notably absent from those threats.

How else should he have done it? Taken out an ad in the classifieds? He married women that he had access to. He never married any woman without her full consent, and he often sought the consent of family members as well. Ah, but he married sisters! Well so did half of the polygamists in Nauvoo. Probably more than half, actually—I haven't counted (there were 196 male polygamists and 717 wives in Nauvoo).

I don't know, Nevo. Did God hand him a quota on that angel's sword? It seems like the principle he was operating under was "get as many as you possibly can." Why? I have no idea, but then we have such little to go on with any of this craziness. I will say that I think it is charming that you imagine coerced consent to be the same as uncoerced consent, as though in the mind of Deity it would be all the same, and it is not conceivable that Joseph could be thought culpable for manipulating others.

By all means, please continue to find any slender thread of justification you can. I hope you keep all of them in mind when the leader comes asking for all of the women in your family. It will be easier for you to hand them over and insure your salvation if you have lined up the justifications for him in advance. Far be it from me to stand in the way of your eternal salvation. I refuse to do it, even if it means that I have to facilitate your absolute misery in the present. Why, one should be willing to shed your blood, and you should thank him for it, if it would help you attain that goal!

In fact, I think you guys aren't worthy of salvation in the present because you are so unwilling to do these kinds of things. The Fundamentalists are probably right. Go Warren Jeffs! I am sure he was forced by circumstances to do all of the crazy crap he had to do to follow God's commands. What was he supposed to do? Fish in a larger gene pool? Like, right! Now you talk crazy talk.

[_Nevo]

I will say that I think it is charming that you imagine coerced consent to be the same as uncoerced consent, as though in the mind of Deity it would be all the same.

When I said they gave their full consent, I meant their unforced consent.

The women who left accounts of Joseph's "threats" were not, in fact, persuaded by them. Lucy Walker, for example, flatly refused the Prophet's proposal when he told her "if you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you." She only relented after receiving her own spiritual confirmation. She later wrote: "President Joseph Smith taught me the principle of plural marriage which after much serious thought and prayer for many months I became convinced that the principle was revealed from heaven and on the first day of May 1843 I consented to become the Prophet's wife." Her experience was typical.

These women were not little children or feeble-minded. We should not disregard or downplay their agency in the matter.

[_Inconceivable]

I will say that I think it is charming that you imagine coerced consent to be the same as uncoerced consent, as though in the mind of Deity it would be all the same.

When I said they gave their full consent, I meant their unforced consent.

The women who left accounts of Joseph's "threats" were not, in fact, persuaded by them. Lucy Walker, for example, flatly refused the Prophet's proposal when he told her "if you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you." She only relented after receiving her own spiritual confirmation. She later wrote: "President Joseph Smith taught me the principle of plural marriage which after much serious thought and prayer for many months I became convinced that the principle was revealed from heaven and on the first day of May 1843 I consented to become the Prophet's wife." Her experience was typical.

These women were not little children or feeble-minded. We should not disregard or downplay their agency in the matter.

Nevo, I guess you have never experienced what it is like to raise an 18 year old daughter. They are extremely impressionable and need a little more time to mature before making these kinds of decisions.

Why is it that just because people say they have received a spiritual confirmation this somehow makes repulsive and immoral behavior righteous, moral, good, above the law and acceptable? I reject this notion outright.

If there is a test from the twisted Mormon Almighty this is one of them.

[_why me]

Nevo, I guess you have never experienced what it is like to raise an 18 year old daughter. They are extremely impressionable and need a little more time to mature before making these kinds of decisions.

Why is it that just because people say they have received a spiritual confirmation this somehow makes repulsive and immoral behavior righteous, moral, good, above the law and acceptable? I reject this notion outright.

If there is a test from the twisted Mormon Almighty this is one of them.

I think that in Lucy Walker's case, we can say that her own spiritual experience was quite overwhelming. And this experience never left her. We can see from this board, spiritual experiences can come and go and also be rationalized as warm fuzzies. But in Lucy's case, the experience was such when praying over plural marriage that she became convinced and this never left her. She continued to be a faithful member for the rest of her life.