What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

[Guest]

Nope, sorry. That's not the tack he seems to be taking. He is pushing consent, as though consent of the extra wives is what mattered. There was one person's consent he needed for this not to be adultery, and he did not get it. THAT is cheating by any definition. Are we to believe that GOD has no problem betraying his little handmaiden here?

Well, I can't speak for Nevo, but I would think that God's ex post facto threat to Emma is as good as her consent up front, wouldn't you think? I bet Joseph was relieved to have God back him up like this after he weenied out and failed to get Emma's consent up front. In other words, God's potential anger nullifies the necessity of the "full, informed consent" of Emma. This means that, as long as God went along with it after the fact, consent was never really necessary at all, and Joseph was always justified in what he was doing, so long as at some point along the way he felt as though God told him to do something. Or am I missing something?

Yes, MAYBE god could order Emma to go along, but unless he wished to be part of the cheating there can be no hiding or lying. Think about it, is god's Joseph Smith's wing man or a god?

ETA: In other words no hanky panky until the order is made, otherwise it is god and Joseph Smith violating the terms of the contract.

[_Kishkumen]

And her brother. Let us not forget her brother would have been tossed out too.

No harmony. Surely Joseph would not have been such a monster as to throw her brother out onto the street. It is true that her failure to consent to this great blessing God was offering her would have effectively separated the two of them, but that is not nearly so bad as throwing them both out onto the street. She could take comfort that her brother still had a roof over his head with the man whom she had unwisely refused to marry.

[_Fifth Columnist]

You know, your post raises in my mind a question regarding the meaning of the word "gate" in this circumstance. It is odd that Joseph was so ambiguous, making it necessary for you and I to speculate that he must have meant the gate to the highest degree of glory or some such. I wonder, though, whether it is possible that he was also alluding to entrance to his home. That would certainly have interesting implications in considering the question of Lucy's "full, informed consent," wouldn't it? Might she have taken the hint that she could find herself tossed out on the street?

What are your thoughts?

I think that Lucy's dependence on Joseph for temporal support played a role in this. However, I have a hard time believing that Lucy felt she was being threatened with eviction if she didn't comply. There isn't enough evidence for me to go that far. Instead, I think Joseph used her presence in his home and her complete dependence on him for temporal support to "groom" her and prepare her to accept something that any right thinking girl would immediately reject. In other words, she was very vulnerable and Joseph was more than willing to take advantage of that vulnerability to further what he thought were God's purposes.

[_Kishkumen]

Yes, MAYBE god could order Emma to go along, but unless he wished to be part of the cheating there can be no hiding or lying. Think about it, is god's Joseph Smith's wing man or a god?

Spurven, I am horrified to see that your apostasy from God's one true church has resulted in you forgetting absolutely everything about the doctrines of Mormonism. Let me help you out here: God's ways are not our ways. Only God knows why it was important for Joseph Smith to threaten the teenage waif Lucy, and many others, into marrying him behind the back of his lawful wife, Emma. But we can be assured that it is God that was behind it because Lucy felt the Spirit, and Emma was later threatened by God through Joseph's mouth to go along with it all or be damned forever. Joseph Smith's Puritan roots figure into all of this somehow, as per the argument of Richard Bushman, but this is not the crucial thing.

What you need to understand is, that as long as you feel the Spirit and God's prophet has told you to do it, you can do absolutely anything. There are no taboos. You can sleep with kids, murder people, steal, lie... the sky is the limit! And this, my friend, is not simply leading a godly life. It is what it means to be a god in fact. Anyone who would not happily cheat on his wife or take a human life for the greater glory of God is not worthy of His Kingdom, or worthy to have one.

Just ask Will Schryver, the champion of the Book of Abraham.

[_harmony]

I think that Lucy's dependence on Joseph for temporal support played a role in this. However, I have a hard time believing that Lucy felt she was being threatened with eviction if she didn't comply. There isn't enough evidence for me to go that far. Instead, I think Joseph used her presence in his home and her complete dependence on him for temporal support to "groom" her and prepare her to accept something that any right thinking girl would immediately reject. In other words, she was very vulnerable and Joseph was more than willing to take advantage of that vulnerability to further what he thought were God's purposes.

I think you give him too much credit. I think he knew all along it wasn't God's purpose he was pushing, it was his own. God didn't show up until after Fanny.

[_Nevo]

Hi Fifth Columnist,

Let me first say that I agree that Joseph pressured these women. I've explicitly acknowledged this. So your sarcastic "gee, no pressure there" refrain doesn't really apply.

The bottom line is that these women agreed to marry Joseph Smith because they believed that God wanted them to. They believed God wanted them to, not just because Joseph Smith said so, but because of personal, deeply felt spiritual experiences that convinced them that polygamy was a true principle. Yes, they trusted Joseph Smith. But they trusted their own experiences with God even more.

There were 196 men and 717 women who formed polygamous relationships in Nauvoo. Were they all duped, coerced, manipulated into it against their wills by Joseph Smith? Of course not. They did it because they believed it was right.

[_Kishkumen]

I think that Lucy's dependence on Joseph for temporal support played a role in this. However, I have a hard time believing that Lucy felt she was being threatened with eviction if she didn't comply. There isn't enough evidence for me to go that far. Instead, I think Joseph used her presence in his home and her complete dependence on him for temporal support to "groom" her and prepare her to accept something that any right thinking girl would immediately reject. In other words, she was very vulnerable and Joseph was more than willing to take advantage of that vulnerability to further what he thought were God's purposes.

Huh. Yes, I guess it would be going a little far to imagine that a teenage waif living with Joseph Smith would think she might get tossed out onto the street for not marrying him when he said the "gate would be closed to her forever" or some such. I would want to look for more evidence on that before I considered it to be a real possibility.

[_Runtu]

Hi Fifth Columnist,

Let me first say that I agree that Joseph pressured these women. I've explicitly acknowledged this. So your sarcastic "gee, no pressure there" refrain doesn't really apply.

The bottom line is that these women agreed to marry Joseph Smith because they believed that God wanted them to. They believed God wanted them to, not just because Joseph Smith said so, but because of personal, deeply felt spiritual experiences that convinced them that polygamy was a true principle. Yes, they trusted Joseph Smith. But they trusted their own experiences with God even more.

There were 196 men and 717 women who formed polygamous relationships in Nauvoo. Were they all duped, coerced, manipulated into it against their wills by Joseph Smith? Of course not. They did it because they believed it was right.

I've never understood this notion that, because the coerced people entered into relationships voluntarily, this somehow absolves the person who coerced them.

[_Kishkumen]

The bottom line is that these women agreed to marry Joseph Smith because they believed that God wanted them to. They believed God wanted them to, not just because Joseph Smith said so, but because of personal, deeply felt spiritual experiences that convinced them that polygamy was a true principle. Yes, they trusted Joseph Smith. But they trusted their own experiences with God even more.

Yes, they did agree to marry Joseph Smith because Joseph Smith, the voice of God, told them that God wanted them to do this and then the Spirit confirmed it. The last part is the real test. If God had not wanted them to do this, just like He wanted those young girls to marry or sleep with David Koresh and Wayne Bent, then the Spirit would not have confirmed it and they would not have felt such heavenly bliss. I can't explain why God wants his prophets to sleep with teenage girls. My objections must be based on envy and can have nothing to do with my fatherly concern for my own daughter or empathy for other parents and children. This is because apostates don't have real feelings; we just have hateful grudges against the truth and the prophets.

No offense, Nevo. Breaking into sincerity here, I really do like you. I apologize for directing this rant to you. Thankfully you are a very tolerant and patient guy. The problem I am having is that as much as I trust you are a good man, I find your argument and defense of Joseph Smith to be utterly repellent.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

I don't think it's repellent. Maybe just misguided. We were both there once.