What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

[_Runtu]

I know enough about women to know that they know when a man is a horny baboon in bed. These women involved with joseph believed that he was a prophet. If he were a conman I have no idea how he could hide his horny baboon nature from them. They would have felt it and acted accordingly.

You seem to ascribe an amazing sense of discernment and self-awareness to Joseph's wives. For you, these were self-confident, world-wise women who could see just by looking at him Joseph's motivations.

People do dumb things when a manipulative person makes them feel chosen or special. It's not that hard to understand.

[_why me]

You seem to ascribe an amazing sense of discernment and self-awareness to Joseph's wives. For you, these were self-confident, world-wise women who could see just by looking at him Joseph's motivations.

People do dumb things when a manipulative person makes them feel chosen or special. It's not that hard to understand.

Except for the fact that there were too many of them. One would have spilled the beans. A horny baboon is a horny baboon. Hard to control that part of a lustful conman's nature. My take on it is more simple. There was no horny baboonness going on. The women did not feel exploited at all. Thus, there was nothing to tell.

Now for the critics such as yourself, Joseph Smith was a horny baboon humping and hopping all over the bed. He was a lustful sex crazed man who could not keep it in his pants. The facts do not back this up.

[_why me]

I don't think we can say for sure whether he felt his actions were sanctioned by God, unless you or I have the ability to read the minds of people who have long been dead. I don't have that ability, do you?

I have the words of william law's son who witnessed the exchange between Joseph and his father. Law's son came to the conclusion that Joseph felt it was a revelation that had to be obeyed by him. Both william and Joseph had tears in their eyes over the issue as they argued over it in front of law's son.

[_Nevo]

Nevo, what about Joseph Smith do you consider to be especially good (good enough that you are willing to give him a pass on the bad stuff)? His character traits? His accomplishment in establishing Mormonism? The way he treated other people?

Yes. All of those things. First and foremost, I believe that he revealed divine truth. I find in his teachings and in the scriptures he brought forth much that is good, true, and beautiful. I believe, as Brigham Young did, that the doctrine he produced "will save you and me, and the whole world" (JD 4:78).

What do I think his positive qualities were? Richard Bushman listed many of them in his talk "The Character of Joseph Smith": good cheer, humility, kindness, friendliness, bravery, resolve, faith, etc.

I think Bushman's observations are spot on (I only list some of them here):

• "If conflict was common in his life, it was not something Joseph enjoyed or sought out. Quite the reverse. He yearned for peace and harmony. It pained him terribly when he fought with people. He wanted peace as quickly as he could get it. If he rebuked people, he also quickly sought for reconciliation.... After a season of small altercations with the Twelve, he brought them together and pled with them to make peace. He acknowledged that a letter rebuking them 'might have been expressed in too harsh language; which was not intentional and I ask your forgiveness in as much as I have hurt your feelings.' He wanted nothing more than to make peace. 'Inasmuch as I have wounded your feelings brethren,' he implored, 'I ask your forgiveness, for I love you and will hold you up with all my heart in all righteousness before the Lord.'"
  
  
• "I don't think you could call Joseph 'nice' in this narrow technical sense of always keeping things smooth and quiet. He spoke his mind and his heart—whether love and gratitude or anger and reproof.... I do not say that his was the better way—it got him in trouble on many occasions—but it won him confidence and friendship. People knew exactly where they stood.... There was no phoniness, no concealment, no pretense, only real feeling, candid expression, and honest reactions."
  
  
• "Looking back now, we can see the necessity of having such a forceful and unyielding person at the opening of the last dispensation.... Joseph's assignments were impossibly difficult—like translating the gold plates or building the city of Zion. These tasks would have defeated the most experienced and well-connected of men. They were assigned to Joseph when he had nothing. Yet he simply went and did them. He let nothing stand in his way. For years the Church existed almost entirely in his mind. He had to compel it into existence by sheer force of will."
  
  
• "Joseph was a happy combination of power and love. He was forceful but openhearted. Under his strength was extraordinary humility and candor. In December 1835, when he was preparing for the temple dedication, some friends in Kirtland cut wood for his family. He was deeply touched by this kindness and could barely find words enough to express his thanks: 'I am sincerely grateful to each and every one of them for this expression of their goodness towards me.' Not content with that, he went on to record a long blessing on the friendly woodcutters. As he wrote, he moved from simple gratitude to an exalted view of the woodcutters possibilities.... That desire to bless his friends ran strong in Joseph. He wanted them to thrive, but more than that, to be exalted. He began with the woodcutters' health and ended with 'everlasting life in the celestial Kingdom of God.' People loved him because he believed in them. Under the woodcutters' shabby clothes and rough manners, he saw people on their way to godhood. They were, in his eyes, divine. That unbounded love for his friends was probably the most compelling of Joseph's qualities."

So, perhaps ironically given the substance of this thread, some of the qualities I prize most in Joseph Smith are his honesty—his openness and sincerity (what Bushman calls his "transparency")—and his boundless gratitude and love for his family and friends. Like the woman in Luke 7:47, Joseph "loved much." And, for that reason, I forgive him much.

"Love covers a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

[_Nevo]

Makes you wonder, though, if she was his wife, why she left the church and married someone else. So much for eternal marriage.

I think her quick marriage to Solomon Custer—away from Kirtland—probably had something to do with the fact that she was carrying Joseph's child.

[_Runtu]

So, perhaps ironically given the substance of this thread, some of the qualities I prize most in Joseph Smith are his honesty—his openness and sincerity (what Bushman calls his "transparency")—and his boundless gratitude and love for his family and friends. Like the woman in Luke 7:47, Joseph "loved much." And, for that reason, I forgive him much.

"Love covers a multitude of sins" (1 Peter 4:8).

I forgive Joseph for whatever he has done that has affected me. The bottom line for me is that his teachings, his claims to prophetic calling, are not true. If the nicest guy in the world falsely claims to be a prophet, I can't follow him.

[_sock puppet]

Simply because Fanny was able to move on doesn't necessarily mean that her relationship with Joseph was pristine.

Fanny just didn't move on. She seems to have said nothing negative about Joseph to her parents and brother since all still believed Joseph was a prophet. And that does say a lot about the relationship.

why me, I think you may be the king of bias confirming assumptions. You are surprised that her believing brother and parents did not write anything Fanny may have said disparagingly about JSJr's romping her? Why would they write such things? Among those with whom they lived in Mormon circles it would cause ostracizing. I don't think it is fair to conclude that because her brother and parents saw nothing wrong with their "prophet" in his 30s boinking sister/daughter that means she was that into it. After all, she did not, If I recall correctly, remain in the faith.

If she's the chosen first lay of the Restoration polygamy, and it is with the man that is talking with god, why would she risk her eternal salvation by marrying outside the faith?

Why would fanny allow her mother and father to continue to believe in the LDS church and in Joseph Smith, especially after the murder?

Do you have the power over your mother and father to 'allow' them 'to continue to believe' what they want? No. So why would you assume Fanny allowed her parents to continue to believe.

If fanny knew that it was based on lust, she had an obligation to tell her parents.

Now since she was silent about such a thing, I can assume that she believed that it was not a nasty dirty affair.

Really, why me? Has it been your experience that women that have been raped and defiled are blabber mouths, shouting it from the housetops? My experience has been that they are very quiet, not wanting others to know.

[_sock puppet]

Makes you wonder, though, if she was his wife, why she left the church and married someone else. So much for eternal marriage.

I think her quick marriage to Solomon Custer—away from Kirtland—probably had something to do with the fact that she was carrying Joseph's child.

The righteous seed needed to be secreted out of Mormondom?

[_Runtu]

I think her quick marriage to Solomon Custer—away from Kirtland—probably had something to do with the fact that she was carrying Joseph's child.

So, perhaps Joseph didn't consider the marriage vow to be very serious. Again, I don't understand why you would do that if you honestly believed you were commanded to raise up seed in that way.

[_Jason Bourne]

Nevo, what about Joseph Smith do you consider to be especially good (good enough that you are willing to give him a pass on the bad stuff)? His character traits? His accomplishment in establishing Mormonism? The way he treated other people?

Yes. All of those things. First and foremost, I believe that he revealed divine truth. I find in his teachings and in the scriptures he brought forth much that is good, true, and beautiful. I believe, as Brigham Young did, that the doctrine he produced "will save you and me, and the whole world" (JD 4:78).

And really this is what is all boils down to does it not? Recently I looked at the new book on Polygamy that Dan Peterson, Nevo, Dan Bradley and others have mentioned here. It looks very interesting and I plan to buy it. I started to look through the few pages Amazon let's you see. And I was struck with a thought. Why are all these books,papers and arguments justifying an thing that seems so clearly wrong? Would these very smart and intelligent persons ever spend as much time studying, researching and attempting to explain away and justify something like polygamy, and not only polygamy but the way it was introduced and even imposed on some, for any other person than Joseph Smith? The answer is clearly no. And why do they do it for Joseph Smith? Because they believe he revealed divine truth. That is it really.

Yes Nevo, I agree there is much wonderful and beautiful from Joseph. I agree that he was likely a cheery good natured fellow. But that does not make what he did of God. A con man, criminal, liar, thief and so and can be good natured, pleasant, kind and charitable. They can even be devote in the causes they believe are good and right. I am not saying Joseph Smith was any of these. He may have been. I do not know. What I do know is at least for me, a lot of what and how he did it makes me suspect of his other claims of divine intervention. That does not mean inspiration or religious genius was not involved with Joseph. But is it the one only true church like he claimed. I am skeptical.