What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

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_Fence Sitter
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

why me wrote:
Nevo wrote:THE LIES PRINTED IN THE NAUVOO EXPOSITOR ARE:

  • Joseph Smith is a man of vicious principles.

  • Joseph Smith "has established an inquisition," resulting in "specimens of injustice of the most pernicious and diabolical character that ever stained the pages of the historian." If left unchecked, it "will prove more formidable and terrible...than even the Spanish inquisition."

  • Joseph Smith is guilty of "many of the most dark and damnable crimes that ever darkened human character."

  • Joseph Smith refuses to allow criminals to be brought to justice.

  • Joseph Smith's grasping for power "find[s] no parallel in history."

  • Joseph Smith is "one of the blackest and basest scoundrels that has appeared upon the stage of human existence since the days of Nero, and Caligula."

  • Joseph Smith is "spreading death, devastation and ruin throughout [the country] like a tornado."


Not one of these statements is true. Anyone who believe these statements are factual is an idiot.

And out to have the mobs gather at the gates for retribution. Between this paper and the warsaw signal, it would not take long for mobs to enter nauvoo and lynch Joseph and burn down Mormon homes.



Why Me,
Using your own standard of evidence for proving something false like the LDS church please show proof that any of these statements are false.

Keep clicking those Ruby Red Shoes together maybe you are actually in Kansas.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_why me
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _why me »

Fifth Columnist wrote:Actually, all of the facts referenced in those statements are true, with the arguable exception of one. I don't think you have set forth a very good case that the Expositor contains "lies."


You must be kidding. A person in the neighboring county reading that paper would quickly come to the conclusion that Joseph Smith must be lynched and the Mormons chased out. The language was inflamatory and inciteful. You need to overcome your bias and see the paper for what it was going to be: a vendetta against Joseph Smith.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Jason Bourne
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Chap wrote:So if some gentiles whose relations had been massacred at Mountain Meadows had organized a similar revenge attack (which I am glad they did not do), you would be arguing here that we had to see the consequent massacre of (probably mostly) innocent LDS 'in context'?

Could you manage a straight yes or no here?

You see, I just want to know whether your 'contextual ethics' applies to everybody.



Jason Bourne wrote:I really think my head is about to explode. After reading all the mental gyrations Why Me goes through ( and that while flip flopping, contradicting himself, bringing in issues that have no bearing on the topic at hand) he now comes up with this dandy.

I can't take it. I just cannot take it.

Light cotton anyone?


why me wrote:I don't want to be a party poop here, but I did not make the above comment. Chap did.


Yes Why Me I know you did not make the statement. I know Chap did. It was the comments you made leading up to it as well as your other mental gyrations on this thread that make my head want to explode.

Clear now?
_stemelbow
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _stemelbow »

I'll repeat my question. What church material are in question here? There is not doubt Church material can be wrong. I don't doubt that at all, but I would like to view what is being complained about here.

Does it really matter if the expositor lied about something if it was wrong for Joseph Smith to order the burning of the press?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Fifth Columnist
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Fifth Columnist »

Nevo wrote:Fact: Obama signed a law to reform the health care system.
Opinion: Obama is a socialist.

Fact: Obama attended school in Indonesia.
Opinion: Obama is a Muslim.

All of these are assertions of fact. The ones you list as facts are inarguably true, while the ones you list as opinions are simply facts that are more in dispute. I agree with your underlying reasoning that opinions are often based on facts, I just don't think this is a good example of it.

It is often tough to discern the difference between a statement of fact and an opinion. Do a little research in defamation case law and you will see what I am talking about. One of the best ways to determine whether something is fact or opinion is to ask whether it can be proved true or false. Many of the statements you cite in the Expositor cannot. For example, it would be impossible to prove that Joseph's guiding principles when he practiced polygamy were "vicious," or that the high council proceedings were injust, pernicious, diabolical, and, if allowed to continue, would be worse than the Spanish inquisitions.

Nevo wrote:So when someone says Obama is a socialist and a Muslim, "the facts referenced in those statements are true." Okay. But the statements themselves are not accurate representations of those facts.

Since most of the statements you cited in the Expositor are unquestionably opinion, they cannot be judged as to whether they are "accurate representations" of the underlying facts. If you want to show that the Expositor contains lies, you must show that it contains a false statement of fact. You cannot point to the authors opinions and say that you disagree. That isn't a lie. It is a difference of opinion.

I admit that I am sympathetic to the opinions expressed in the Expositor. I find Joseph's polygamous behavior and actions thoroughly disgusting. I am less incensed by his attempts to grasp power, cut people off without allowing them the chance to defend themselves, etc. However, I can see why the authors would be incensed by those things.
_Kishkumen
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Nevo wrote:Fact: Obama signed a law to reform the health care system.
Opinion: Obama is a socialist.

Fact: Obama attended school in Indonesia.
Opinion: Obama is a Muslim.

So when someone says Obama is a socialist and a Muslim, "the facts referenced in those statements are true." Okay. But the statements themselves are not accurate representations of those facts.


I can honestly see how some people argue by way of extreme hyperbole that Obama is a socialist, partly because the term has already been politicized to the point that its technical definition is practically ignored.

As for the Muslim part, I think this is a case where people are stretching to make something out of nothing for purely prejudicial reasons. Prejudice is obviously involved in both gestures, but the latter is a clearer case.

In any case, I see neither example as being closely parallel with the claim that Joseph Smith's principles were "vicious," which is an utterly subjective description of highly controversial behavior.

I fail to see how anyone could implicitly defend Joseph Smith's behavior as uncontroversial, unobjectionable, and perfectly in line with Judeo-Christian civilization and democratic principles of government. Really?!?!?!?!?!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Fence Sitter
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Kishkumen wrote:Nevo:

The only one that I believe has absolutely no teeth whatsoever is the last item. And when I say no teeth, I mean that no one with even the most uncharitable reading of everything Smith did could possibly credit it. find[s] no parallel in history."



Kishkumen,

If you consider what happened in Independence, Far West, and to a lessor extent Kirtland I believe there is a case to be made for the last one. Everywhere Joseph Smith tried to establish Zion the end result was "death, devastation and ruin". While these results were not always directly by his own hand, certainly they would not have occurred had he not tried to set up his theocracies everywhere he went. It seems to me everywhere he went we encounter death, devastation and ruin.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Darth J
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Darth J »

Nevo wrote:
Fifth Columnist wrote:Actually, all of the facts referenced in those statements are true, with the arguable exception of one. I don't think you have set forth a very good case that the Expositor contains "lies."

Fact: Obama signed a law to reform the health care system.
Opinion: Obama is a socialist.

Fact: Obama attended school in Indonesia.
Opinion: Obama is a Muslim.

So when someone says Obama is a socialist and a Muslim, "the facts referenced in those statements are true." Okay. But the statements themselves are not accurate representations of those facts.


Whether "Obama is a socialist" is an accurate representation of fact---the policies he has pursued and enacted---depends on how literal one is being in defining "socialist." At what point on the political spectrum a person becomes a "socialist" is largely a value judgment.

"Obama is a Muslim" is a claim of fact, not opinion. A statement of opinion would be something like, "Obama is not a real Christian." What constitutes a "real" Christian is a value judgment.

Nevo, you're a reasonable and a decent guy, and I would never use the slur of "apologist" to describe you. I really wish that more believing Latter-day Saints like you would join in the conversations on this board. But whether or not a statement is a declaration of opinion or a claim of fact is not determined by the degree to which you agree with the statement.

But all of this is getting away from the real issue. The purported legal basis for shutting down the Expositor was libel. Opinions are not libel. False printed statements of fact (that damage a person's reputation) are libel.

Too bad Joseph Smith did not sue the Expositor publishers for defamation. Then he would have had to prove that he had a good reputation that was damaged, while the publishers would have to show the truth of their statements as an affirmative defense. I'm sure that trial would have been resolved in Joseph Smith's favor!
_Kishkumen
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Darth J wrote:Whether "Obama is a socialist" is an accurate representation of fact---the policies he has pursued and enacted---depends on how literal one is being in defining "socialist." At what point on the political spectrum a person becomes a "socialist" is largely a value judgment.

"Obama is a Muslim" is a claim of fact, not opinion. A statement of opinion would be something like, "Obama is not a real Christian." What constitutes a "real" Christian is a value judgment.


Thanks to Darth J for explaining the problem with Nevo's exercise with perfect clarity. We are lucky to have you here.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Fifth Columnist
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Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Fifth Columnist »

Darth J wrote:Too bad Joseph Smith did not sue the Expositor publishers for defamation. Then he would have had to prove that he had a good reputation that was damaged, while the publishers would have to show the truth of their statements as an affirmative defense. I'm sure that trial would have been resolved in Joseph Smith's favor!

This is exactly the trial the authors of the Expositor wanted to have before the High Council. Joseph short circuited that by summarily excommunicating them.
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