What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _why me »

sock puppet wrote:So, all you defenders who are legends in your own wards, or perhaps just your own minds, do you have cajones even approaching Nevo's? Then let's see you do it. Post specifically what you thing the one and only issue of the Nauvoo Expositor included that was libelous.

Come on,

Simon Belmont?

DCP?

Pahoran?

stemelbow? (it matters)

bcspace?

Nehor?

wenglund?

nomad?


I did. And it was at the same time as Nevo. I think that we proved our case against the expositor. It deserved to be shut down because it would have contributed to public disorder.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _sock puppet »

why me wrote:
sock puppet wrote:So, all you defenders who are legends in your own wards, or perhaps just your own minds, do you have cajones even approaching Nevo's? Then let's see you do it. Post specifically what you thing the one and only issue of the Nauvoo Expositor included that was libelous.

Come on,

Simon Belmont?

DCP?

Pahoran?

stemelbow? (it matters)

bcspace?

Nehor?

wenglund?

nomad?


I did. And it was at the same time as Nevo. I think that we proved our case against the expositor. It deserved to be shut down because it would have contributed to public disorder.

You really believe governments legitimately have the authority to shut down constitutionally protected activities by its citizens because those in charge fear that if allowed to continue, it could lead to public disorder?

why me, as a fellow board poster, I'd like to be able to exhibit some modicum of respect for you, but you make it impossible.

Count me as someone who has just converted to the Dreyfuss Project. More civics educations is sorely needed, as demonstrated by why me's complete lack of understanding of the limitation on government power that is known as individual rights and liberties.

ETA: why me, at my grade school playground, the kids would have phrased it this way: pull your head out of your ass.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _sock puppet »

The final cajone count for defenders is as follows:

Nevo--Big ones

Simon Belmont--None

DCP--None

Pahoran--None ones

stemelbow--Small

bcspace--None

Nehor--None

wenglund--None

nomad--None ('nomad lacked any gonad')

If you don't dare post what specifically you think were factual falsehoods, you obviously have not cajones--except stemelbow has little ones, he surrendered on the issue, completely and unconditionally. He might get a "+" next to his small sized ones if he can show how he's been razzed by other defenders for conceding the obvious, not a wise thing to do when you are a defender (even if it is the accurate thing to do).
_3sheets2thewind
_Emeritus
Posts: 1451
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:28 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

The Nehor wrote:Don't have to go far to find a lie:

"It is with the greatest solicitude for the salvation of the Human Family, and of our own souls, that we have this day assembled. Feign would we have slumbered, and "like the Dove that covers and conceals the arrow that is preying upon its vitals," for the sake of avoiding the furious and turbulent storm of persecution which will gather, soon to burst upon our heads, have covered and concealed that which, for a season, has been brooding among the ruins of our peace: but we rely upon the arm of Jehovah, the Supreme Arbiter of the world, to whom we this day, and upon this occasion, appeal for the rectitude of our intentions."

Another:

"The question is asked, will you bring a mob upon us? In answer to that, we assure all concerned, that we will be among the first to put down anything like an illegal force being used against any man or set of men."

Did the publishers of the Expositor try to put down the mob. They weren't at Carthage...at least not putting down the mob. Maybe they didn't know. Did they try to stop the mobs that attacked Nauvoo after Joseph? No. They were perfectly content to kick up an ant hill and then watch their former friends killed or forced to flee the state.

Liars.


so which is the lie? Religious belief can not necessarily be a lie without all religion being a lie.

Secondly, to look after the fact and say "You lied" is juvenile. Facts and circumstances changed with the destruction of the press. You can only claim "liar" if the facts and circumstances remained the same. Even then, you would have to show that at the time of writing the person writing had no intent to uphold the statement.

-----------

DarthJ, as to the statements from the expositor being defamatory, or as you described circular reasoning.... can something be defamatory but not legally actionable, similar to how some things are hearsay but are exceptions to the hearsay rule?

-----------

I tend to think that many LDS misunderstand Oaks review, Oaks review supports the destruction of the actual papers, but Oaks review does not support the destruction of the printing press itself.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _sock puppet »

3sheets2thewind wrote:-----------

DarthJ, as to the statements from the expositor being defamatory, or as you described circular reasoning.... can something be defamatory but not legally actionable, similar to how some things are hearsay but are exceptions to the hearsay rule?

Darth J I am not, but since he does not frequent MDB much lately, I'll take a stab at responding.

Defamation is generally speaking "a false statement that injures someone’s reputation and exposes him to public contempt, hatred, ridicule, or condemnation. If the false statement is published in print or through broadcast media, such as radio or TV, it is called libel. If it is only spoken, it is called slander."

In almost all instances, the statement must be false to be defamatory. Thus, evidence of the truthfulness of the damaging statement creates a defense for the one that uttered, wrote, or disseminated the injurious statement. Defamation, as a legal term, includes falsehood as part of its definition. Colloquial, non-legal uses of the term defamation by the public will often connote an injurious statement, regardless of its truth. However, a truthful statement is not legally actionable even if it harms. (Note, a statement may be injurious but true and be actionable as an invasion of the injured person's privacy, if the information was kept confidential prior to the speaker's/writer's/disseminator's making it public. But that is not actionable legally as defamation if the statement is in fact true.)

For some types of defamatory statements, the public contempt, hatred, ridicule or condemnation is implied. Depending on the state or other legal jurisdiction, having STDs, abhorrent sexual preferences, having committed a crime, having leprosy, etc usually fall in this category and the person claiming defamation does not have to prove the public contempt, hatred, ridicule or condemnation that must be proven for other types of false, injurious statements to be actionable.

Even after the falsity of the statement is proven, and its injurious effect proven (if that second element is required), defamation lawsuits often flounder when it comes to putting on evidence of damage in financial terms. Often, the evidence of financial damage is flimsy and would require the jury to make conjectures about the financial impact of the statement. Judges, both at the trial and appellate levels, will often dismiss a case before it goes to the jury if there is not concrete evidence of financial injury placed before the jury on which it can base a financial award.
3sheets2thewind wrote:-----------

I tend to think that many LDS misunderstand Oaks review, Oaks review supports the destruction of the actual papers, but Oaks review does not support the destruction of the printing press itself.

The actual papers were property of Walmart Law et al. until sold to patrons just as surely as the printing press was the property of Walmart Law et al. It was known by the Nauvoo City Council what the 1st Edition papers actually contained (and in my view, there was nothing defamatory and even if there was, the proper legal steps then as now were for JSJr to file a civil lawsuit where he'd have to first prove the falsity of the statements and prove injury from them in order to obtain an injunction against their dissemination to subscribers and the public, and prove the amount of financial damages in order to get a money judgment against Walmart Law et al.--not to use the power of the city government to destroy those papers).

The destruction of the printing press involved speculation about what Walmart Law et al. would publish in the future, in perhaps a 2nd Edition, a 3rd, and so forth. No doubt JSJr, Hyrum Smith, and others on the Nauvoo City Council based their speculation on what they read in the 1st Edition. However, speculation it nevertheless was.

As to the destruction of both the 1st Edition papers and the printing press, the destruction involved the use of governmental powers of the City of Nauvoo to stifle dissenting views and thereby violated the free speech rights of Walmart Law et al. The City charter, despite what in-the-tank Mormon lawyers will say to the contrary, invoked compliance by the Nauvoo City government with the Illinois Constitution of 1818 which protected free speech from government suppression of it.
_Joseph
_Emeritus
Posts: 3517
Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 11:00 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _Joseph »

so.... after 23 pages and the collective brilliance of l-dsinc members online, where are the lies?

The Sunday School and teaching manuals say the paper printed lies.
"This is how INGORNAT these fools are!" - darricktevenson

Bow your head and mutter, what in hell am I doing here?

infaymos wrote: "Peterson is the defacto king ping of the Mormon Apologetic world."
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: What lies did the Nauvoo Expositor print?

Post by _sock puppet »

Joseph wrote:so.... after 23 pages and the collective brilliance of l-dsinc members online, where are the lies?

The Sunday School and teaching manuals say the paper printed lies.

I do not have a link, and it's a post in another thread, but the closest I think anyone got in arguing for a falsehood in the Expositor was asbestosman about a year ago.
Post Reply