PoGP on Canaanites, black skin and priesthood

[_bcspace]

So here's another question your untenable argument can't answer. When was the land cursed that the people of Canaan became black? How could this come through Noah/Ham if it didn't happen before them? Your logic sets up an impossible senario for antiLDS criticism. Again notice Moses 7:21-22. Enoch sees the present inhabitants of the earth, the seed of Cain being black, and then sees in the process of time, the city of Enoch taken up to heaven. This is still preFlood.

[_just me]

There were "people of Canaan" at the time of Enoch. Enoch refused to teach them the gospel. Jerk.

Moses 7:12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

Clearly the people of Canaan were cursed as to the gospel pre-flood. *eyeroll* The "prophesy" is that blackness came upon them, but it really doesn't seem to specify when.

The whole chapter is a really interesting read. God curses all the "residue" people on the earth and it appears that Enoch refuses to share the gospel with them in the first place. Then we have God crying over these "residue" people and saying how indignant and angry he is at them for not, you know, following the gospel plan. LOL Finally he reveals that he has a prison waiting for these super wicked humans that weren't allowed to hear the gospel in the first place.

Then God tells Enoch all about the people who are gonna live and how EVIL they are and that he is gonna kill 'em with a flood. Poor Enoch is distraught and God comforts him by telling him that in a few thousand years Jesus will come on a suicide mission and all will be saved. YAY!

God covenants with Enoch to never flood the earth again...after Noah. How is this not a problem for local flood enthusiasts? God totally went back on his word because there are local floods ALL.THE.TIME.

Hey, someone wrote an article on By Common Consent with an interesting quote:

[Nibley] does not think the blacks are related to Cain, or the early Canaan, and probably not to Ham, Egyptus, Canaan or Pharaoh. He’s unsure but would guess now that Brigham Young was “wrong” relating blacks to Cain. He said–”we all have Negro blood”-there was intermixture everywhere. I asked about the accounts of the early patriarchs marrying apparent blacks. He exclaimed yes[.] I mentioned Moses–Yes. But the real “irony” was Joseph marrying a daughter of the priest of On–who he says by definition had to have been a Hamite–and their sons were Ephraim and Manasseh, who[m] we are all so proud to claim. He said it was as though the Lord was trying to tell us something.” (emphasis in original) Bush, “Writing ‘Mormonism’s Negro Doctrine: a historical Overview’ (1973): Context and Reflections, 1998, ” JMH, 25:1 (Spring 1999), 268-269.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[_Buffalo]

Moses 7 mentions the descendants of Canaan.

Yes. Which ones?

If Joseph got the time line wrong, that is not evidence in favor of Joseph.

Sure, but it's not something you can show. That's why criticism along these lines doesn't work.

Again, there is no mention of two groups of Canaanites - not in LDS scripture,

Moses 7 is a plausible example. You can't honestly deny it.

not in legitimate ancient history.

Much of Bible history is not archeologically or historically proven yet you are still using the Bible to try and prove your own point and yet you won't allow me the same with the scripture I have presented. That is a logical fallacy.

That is entirely your invention of apologetic expediency.

No, I'm simply looking at what scripture says. I can't help it if the future is not presented until after vs 10 or even perhaps not until after vs 21.

Sorry bcspace, this line of attack won't work. Moses 7 uses the same language as the later scriptures, describing Ham, Canaan, and their descendants. Ham's wife was supposedly from the line of Cain, which is why the "curse" was preserved. That would apply to all of Ham's descendants, including Canaan and all of his descendants. All you're arguing for is one additional mistake from Joseph Smith, besides his erroneous belief that the Canaanites were black.

[_Buffalo]

So here's another question your untenable argument can't answer. When was the land cursed that the people of Canaan became black? How could this come through Noah/Ham if it didn't happen before them? Your logic sets up an impossible senario for antiLDS criticism. Again notice Moses 7:21-22. Enoch sees the present inhabitants of the earth, the seed of Cain being black, and then sees in the process of time, the city of Enoch taken up to heaven. This is still preFlood.

If you're right, that's an addition obvious blunder (anachronism) from Joseph. Thanks for bringing up that possibility. :)

[_bcspace]

Sorry bcspace, this line of attack won't work. Moses 7 uses the same language as the later scriptures, describing Ham, Canaan, and their descendants. Ham's wife was supposedly from the line of Cain, which is why the "curse" was preserved. That would apply to all of Ham's descendants, including Canaan and all of his descendants. All you're arguing for is one additional mistake from Joseph Smith, besides his erroneous belief that the Canaanites were black.

I usually save the best for last to give one an opportunity to save face and to give the student a more forceful lesson by finding out on his own. But just me has already administered the coup de grace here. Your chestnut falls on the sword of Moses 7:12. Frankly, if I were you, I'd study the issues before commenting on them.

Since your Canaanite hypothesis has been done in, start another thread if you want us to comment on another issue.

[_Buffalo]

Sorry bcspace, this line of attack won't work. Moses 7 uses the same language as the later scriptures, describing Ham, Canaan, and their descendants. Ham's wife was supposedly from the line of Cain, which is why the "curse" was preserved. That would apply to all of Ham's descendants, including Canaan and all of his descendants. All you're arguing for is one additional mistake from Joseph Smith, besides his erroneous belief that the Canaanites were black.

I usually save the best for last to give one an opportunity to save face and to give the student a more forceful lesson by finding out on his own. But just me has already administered the coup de grace here. Your chestnut falls on the sword of Moses 7:12. Frankly, if I were you, I'd study the issues before commenting on them.

Since your Canaanite hypothesis has been done in, start another thread if you want us to comment on another issue.

Either way you take this passage, my point stands.

12And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;

A. Enoch didn't call on the people of Canaan to repent because historically they didn't exist yet (which would be the better choice if your aim is to defend this as a historical text)
B. Enoch anachronistically calls on a non-existent people to repent.

If B is true, we add an additional anachronism to Joseph Smith's mistake about the attributes of the Canaanites. Either way, Joseph screwed up. Thanks bcspace :)

Can any other apologist do better than this?

[_just me]

It is C. Enoch anachronistically refuses to call on a non-existent people to repent.

[_just me]

Where was the City of Enoch, anyway? Where did these events take place according to LDS belief? Because, I was taught that Adam & Eve lived in Missouri. It is claimed that Joseph Smith said that the City of Enoch was where the Gulf of Mexico is currently. I know I heard that idea at church, too.

If Enoch was living on the American continent (Gulf of Mexico area) then where were the people of Canaan living? Where is the land of Canaan that became all hot and the people turned black?...a land that wasn't previously hot and barren.

6 And again the Lord said unto me: Look; and I looked towards the north, and I beheld the people of Canaan, which dwelt in tents.

7 And the Lord said unto me: Prophesy; and I prophesied, saying: Behold the people of Canaan, which are numerous, shall go forth in battle array against the people of Shum, and shall slay them that they shall utterly be destroyed; and the people of Canaan shall divide themselves in the land, and the land shall be barren and unfruitful, and none other people shall dwell there but the people of Canaan;

8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Where is the fulfillment of this prophesy?

[_Buffalo]

Where was the City of Enoch, anyway? Where did these events take place according to LDS belief? Because, I was taught that Adam & Eve lived in Missouri. It is claimed that Joseph Smith said that the City of Enoch was where the Gulf of Mexico is currently. I know I heard that idea at church, too.

If Enoch was living on the American continent (Gulf of Mexico area) then where were the people of Canaan living? Where is the land of Canaan that became all hot and the people turned black?...a land that wasn't previously hot and barren.

6 And again the Lord said unto me: Look; and I looked towards the north, and I beheld the people of Canaan, which dwelt in tents.

7 And the Lord said unto me: Prophesy; and I prophesied, saying: Behold the people of Canaan, which are numerous, shall go forth in battle array against the people of Shum, and shall slay them that they shall utterly be destroyed; and the people of Canaan shall divide themselves in the land, and the land shall be barren and unfruitful, and none other people shall dwell there but the people of Canaan;

8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

Where is the fulfillment of this prophesy?

Oh, I'd forgotten about that twaddle about the pre-flood peoples living in North America. Absolutely hilarious that any adult could believe this. :D

[_Buffalo]

Anyway, thanks to bcspace for pointing out yet another fatal error in the PoGP.

Anyone else care to try to defend Joseph's blunder about Canaanites supposedly having black skin and being cursed?