sethpayne wrote: I very much doubt that you if you were to ask the Japanese area presidency "did God "play favorites in the recent Japanese disaster?" I very much doubt that their response would be "yes." I imagine that their position would be more nuanced than that
Imagine away. But if one takes the statement actually made, as opposed to a different one that was not made, it is clear that the LDS deity was explicitly thanked precisely for having played favorites. And that is a pretty repellent idea, as you seem to acknowledge.
Of course, if the person making the statement was informed that it was not productive of a good image of the LDS church, I have no doubt that given time he could construct some kind of 'nuanced' escape route from the embarrassment. Anyone can do that kind of thing, at least to the satisfaction of his own side.
But here we see what an LDS leader actually said when faced with a vast mass of human suffering around him. What is interesting about this kind of statement, made no doubt without much deep thought, is that it reveals the kind of stupidly magical thinking that passes for normality in some religious minds. When we are asked to 'respect' religious belief, is this kind of thing included in the deal? If so, it is a tall order.
I don't disagree with anything you have said.
However, I suppose I'm a bit more sympathetic because on far too many occasions I have said and/or done things within the moment of a tragedy to have only thought to myself later: "Wow... I really could have said/done that in a much more sensitive and thoughtful way." Of course, my intention with the original statement was never to be offensive but, only with the benefit of hindsight to I realize that what I said in the moment could have been stated in a much more kind and thoughtful way.
To think otherwise in this case we would need to assume the Japanese area presidency to be callous and mean-spirited -- something I don't find plausible given the fact that even though Mormon leaders often -- as we all do -- say very stupid things, they are, for the most part, pretty nice people.
sethpayne wrote:I agree with you that the wording of the this statement is problematic due to its implications. However, I very much doubt that you if you were to ask the Japanese area presidency "did God "play favorites in the recent Japanese disaster?" I very much doubt that their response would be "yes." I imagine that their position would be more nuanced than that
No doubt Seth, no doubt.
It’s interesting how casual it is for LDS folk to insert God into anything. How quickly the sacred becomes mundane.
I have a grievious problem with a so-called diety that would save Mormon missionaries while giving those immediately around them the finger (of death).
If, in the eternal realm, we happen upon this Mormon God in desperate need of preserving His own sorry ass, I wonder how many that even claim loyalty to Him would be willing to offer Him assistance.
This monster has nothing in common with whom I would aspire to. People are basically good. The children of the earth don't deserve Him.
sethpayne wrote:I agree with you that the wording of the this statement is problematic due to its implications. However, I very much doubt that you if you were to ask the Japanese area presidency "did God "play favorites in the recent Japanese disaster?" I very much doubt that their response would be "yes." I imagine that their position would be more nuanced than that
No doubt Seth, no doubt.
It’s interesting how casual it is for LDS folk to insert God into anything. How quickly the sacred becomes mundane.
It should serve as a reminder than when those of us who are theists choose to claim things for the divine, we need to be very precise in our language and take the time to really think through the meaning and implications of the words we choose. Not an easy task ... but I think one required of anyone who claims belief in God or metaphysical divinity.
For what its worth, tragedies like this make me lean much more toward deistic theism. Although, I suppose I could accept Alvin Plantiga's persuasive (hell, even Mackey conceded..) argument that such suffering *may* serve a divine purpose -- I just can't conceive of what that purpose may be.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
sethpayne wrote:It should serve as a reminder than when those of us who are theists choose to claim things for the divine, we need to be very precise in our language and take the time to really think through the meaning and implications of the words we choose. Not an easy task ... but I think one required of anyone who claims belief in God or metaphysical divinity.
I understand some of the criticism here. But I think it a cheap shot to say that the LDS leaders are not also concerned about the people in Japan. Sure when I read it I thought if God was working such great miracles why didn't he just prevent the earthquake in the first place. But still I don't think anything malicious was meant by this.
I refuse to get into a debate about whether any of this was correctly done. This is a horrific tragedy and I say let everyone express gratitude for the survivals and grief for the lost in their own way.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Jason Bourne wrote:I understand some of the criticism here. But I think it a cheap shot to say that the LDS leaders are not also concerned about the people in Japan. Sure when I read it I thought if God was working such great miracles why didn't he just prevent the earthquake in the first place. But still I don't think anything malicious was meant by this.
Agreed. The Area Presidency was expressing gratefulness that missionaries and members were safe. Nothing malicious intended by them, I'm confident.
For me it's not so much what the Area Presidency said, but rather that people can believe in a god who is supposedly loving and merciful, yet so capricious. Not to mention "prophets" who never prophesy.
"There is no shame in watching porn." - why me, 08/15/11
"The answer is: ...poontang." - darricktevenson, 01/10/11
Daniel Peterson is a "Gap-Toothed Lizard Man" - Daniel Peterson, 12/06/08
Jason Bourne wrote:I understand some of the criticism here. But I think it a cheap shot to say that the LDS leaders are not also concerned about the people in Japan. Sure when I read it I thought if God was working such great miracles why didn't he just prevent the earthquake in the first place. But still I don't think anything malicious was meant by this.
How is it a cheap shot to insist that senior ecclesiastical leaders demonstrate an appropriate amount of spiritual thoughtfulness and epistemic humility when making public statements about God’s will during a global catastrophe?
This isn’t like a reporter ran up and shoved a microphone in their face in the middle of an emotional crisis and asked for a comment right then and there.
Wonder what the average everyday gentile in Japan would make of this message? Would it be offensive or inoffensive to them? You can't really judge the message by the reaction of this board due to a partisanship that sees things with polarized subjectivity.
My thought is that the message did contain some LDS religious perspective, but still missed those words of sorrow and hope for all that you would expect from other religious groups. The people back in Utah want to know whether all the members are fine, but that does not preclude caring for all others affected by this disaster.
As far as claiming divine provenance, no one has yet address why the Angel Moroni was turned on its pedestal so as to face Mecca.