"Are you on your period or something?" and other sexist remarks

[Chap]

In a Religious Society of Friends (Quaker) meeting, the basic rule is that people may speak when the spirit moves them do so.



But because Quakers are not naïve people, it is understood that if the presiding Elders consider that someone present is speaking so long or in such a manner that it is ceasing to be edifying to those present, one of them may simply stand up and say with a friendly (or Friendly) smile "Our Friend has spoken enough'. The Friend in question then smiles back and says no more.

It is a wise institution, don't you think?

[Res Ipsa]

Oh, Moksha.

I fear I made a mistake by addressing only the style of your Haiphong Harbor reference and not the substance. Using a minefield as a metaphor for interacting with women sends the same message as the request for a list: that women are irrational, dangerously so. It’s all the same thing: are you on the rag, give me a list, dealing with women is a minefield.

There is a thing men do in conversations about sexism (and whites folks do in conversations about racism: they make the conversation all about them — their hurt, their pain. We’re so used to talking over and drowning out women’s voices, we don’t even recognize when we’re doing it. We need to recognize when we are doing it and stop.

Old dogs can learn new tricks. So can old penguins. Start by listening and trying to spot stereotypes of women that stretch back to the days where men treated women as property and a man could legally rape his wife. Those stereotypes aren’t still used to justify unfair and unequal treatment of women in employment and professional fields.

Being better humans (or flightless fowl) is a good thing.

[Some Schmo]

I like to think of Moksha as our poor man’s Dennis Miller.

I've got to say, I wouldn't take too kindly to this comment either. Dennis Miller is a terrible comic.

This thread reminds me of a concept I learned years ago, something I've noticed is pretty common amongst us humans: if someone pisses us off, we tend to attack the thing about them we think is vulnerable and not necessarily the offense itself. For example, someone cuts you off in traffic, and you happen to notice they are vastly overweight, so instead of yelling they're a terrible driver, you call them a fat “F”.

I've noticed it can be difficult to encounter frustration with a woman and avoid using sexist tropes, exactly because of a long history of effective offense using them. Men who can avoid them are certainly more evolved. It's certainly past time to leave those in the rhetorical toolbox.

Given Analytics' posting history, I have little doubt he's telling the truth about what motivated his comment, but I'm glad he apologized anyway.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Perhaps a better analogy is something like what I just read when a couple of women described their bad movie theater experiences:

Arrived at a movie theater early with a friend. The theater was 100% empty besides the two of us. A stranger comes in by himself. He walkeds straight over to our aisle and sits down at the exact chair to my left. Our elbows were now touching.
It was a rare time in my life where the filter was completely off and I actually said exactly what I was thinking. I said to him, "Are you damned serious right now?"

This lunatic had the audacity to say, "What?"

and

Had an old guy do that, completely empty row, sat down to my left and shoved my elbow off the armrest. After I told him exactly how much of an ass he was being, he decided to be offended and shuffle off somewhere else.

I get the feeling Moksha didn’t take the time to actually read the story quoted in OP. I have a hard time believing that anyone reading that would then enter the thread, shove an elbow off the armrest, and then legitimately feel justified at feeling like the victim when the Baroness Jane van Lawick-Goodall said wtf to David Greybeard when he took her fork. Those Gombe discussion board chimps, amirite? Or amirite?

- Doc

[Lem]

I've noticed it can be difficult to encounter frustration with a woman and avoid using sexist tropes, exactly because of a long history of effective offense using them. Men who can avoid them are certainly more evolved. It's certainly past time to leave those in the rhetorical toolbox.

Ouch. I don't think I've heard that particular use of an "effective offense." it gets pretty ugly to consider what the offensive goal might be, and why the use of sexism would be considered effective in achieving that goal.

Given Analytics' posting history, I have little doubt he's telling the truth about what motivated his comment, but I'm glad he apologized anyway.

I am trying to understand your meaning here. The "but" followed by the "anyway" would seem to imply that you think an apology wasn't actually necessary?

[Lem]

Perhaps a better analogy is something like what I just read when a couple of women described their bad movie theater experiences:

It was a rare time in my life where the filter was completely off and I actually said exactly what I was thinking.....

I couldn't help but compare the experiences behind that statement by a woman, and a very different statement recently posted upthread.

I've noticed it can be difficult to encounter frustration with a woman and avoid using sexist tropes....

[Some Schmo]

Ouch. I don't think I've heard that particular use of an "effective offense." it gets pretty ugly to consider what the offensive goal might be, and why the use of sexism would be considered effective in achieving that goal.

Using certain phrases can get a rise out of people, depending on the phrase and the target. If that's your intention, being sexist with a woman can achieve that end. Sometimes, people do mean to cause offense.

I am trying to understand your meaning here. The "but" followed by the "anyway" would seem to imply that you think an apology wasn't actually necessary?

No, it implied he's a grown adult who makes his own choices, and he could have proceeded any way he wanted. He had what I imagine he thought was a reasonable explanation for his actions but decided his justification wasn't worth the resulting offense, and decided to apologize. I was glad about the choice he made.

[Some Schmo]

(Quoting me): I've noticed it can be difficult to encounter frustration with a woman and avoid using sexist tropes....

Yes, and I consider part of the maturing of a man is getting past that temptation and resolving conflicts in a more direct way (i. e staying on topic and not just making wild attacks with the intention of hurting someone).

I was admitting that as a male, I've said some crappy things to women in my life. (I've said lots of unfair things to lots of people - like I said, depends on the phrase and the target). As I've grown older, been with the same woman for 30 years and raised a daughter, I like to think I've improved over time, but I've struggled with being an asshole at times. Can't fix it if I can't see it.

[Lem]

(Quoting me): I've noticed it can be difficult to encounter frustration with a woman and avoid using sexist tropes....

Yes, and I consider part of the maturing of a man is getting past that temptation and resolving conflicts in a more direct way (i. e staying on topic and not just making wild attacks with the intention of hurting someone).

You missed the point of my comparison.

[Some Schmo]

You missed the point of my comparison.

That's true; I did.