Theory of Capitalism collapses

[_Markk]

Hi kevin,

An honest question...what would you do if you were "king". How do we fix the corruption on both sides?

MG

[_MadMonk]

Democrats . . . HAVE NO INTEREST IN MAKING THEIR POWER BASE DISAPPEAR, . . . . At anytime when Democrats have been in control of government, has the plight of the disadvantaged become better?

Well, the WPA and the CCC made a big difference to workers in the Great Depression. Social Security, Medicare, and the Civil Rights Act have each made a difference in many people's lives. The Farm Bureau certainly improved my grandparents', mother's, aunts', and uncles' lives. The Food & Drug Administraion and USDA inspectors have made the food we eat much safer than it was in the days of Upton Sinclair. And the EPA has made great strides fighting pollution in this country. Oh, sorry--it was the Republicans who started that one!

Forgive me--I don't mean to cavil at the real point of this paragraph. You are absolutely right about the Democrats' not being saints.

Republicans don't get a pass from me either. While I agree with conservative values and principles, Republicans . . . haven't followed core conservative values at all.
. . . . Because ultimately, if we have debt problem, they created it. If we have a tax problem, they created it. If we have bad policies and regulations, they created them. If there is waste and inefficiency, they created it and allow it.

Some good points here, which Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh unaccountably seem to have missed. If big government and deficit spending are truly as bad as Glenn and Rush have been claiming lately, I wish they could have spoken up when Mr. Reagan tripled the national debt with his deficit spending and increased the number of Federal employees, when Mr. Bush the elder continued the deficit spending, and when Mr. Bush the younger discontinued Mr. Clinton's "pay as you go policy," went back to deficit spending, stopped paying down the national debt, and created the vast bureaucracy of the Homeland Security Department (not counting existing organizations transferred to its authority, either).

(by the way, the nation could actually have been out of debt by now if the second Bush administration had continued paying off the national debt at the same rate as under the Clinton administration.)

Forgive me for pointing this out, but you are wrong to blame the Republicans for waste and inefficiency in government. The Democrats deserve their fair share of the blame, too.

[_Kevin Graham]

Hi kevin,

An honest question...what would you do if you were "king". How do we fix the corruption on both sides?

MG

Simple really. Make lobbying illegal.

That takes the profit motive out of the equation for politicians. The only motive left should be the interests of their constituents.

Politicians should be in office to enact positive change, but once they arrive to Congress they quickly become aware of what kind of gravy train they're really on. They have no communication with the regular folks who put them in office. Instead they meet on a daily basis with one of the 24,000 corporate lobbyists whose job is quite simple: offer the politicians whatever you can in order to buy his vote. The system is such a joke right now that politicians do not even write their own laws anymore. They let the corporate lobbyists do all the writing and they vote on them according to amount of campaign contributions.

Do you think it is just a coincidence that Bank CEO's end up working in the Treasury Dept? That folks who pass legislation to secure the wealth of Insurance and Drug companies, end up working for those companies at six figure incomes, after they're voted out of office by the same people who put them there? Is it a coincidence that Henry Pauslen, former CEO of Goldman Sachs, was the one who jammed together quick bill for congress to sign off on, in Fall of 2008, which essentially scared the nation to death and handed over to the banks, the key to our treasury, giving them hundreds of billions in bail outs? This business of mixing Coporate CEOs with government officiating was perfected under Ronald Reagan, who allowed Don Regan, former CEO of Merryl Lynch, to bully him around like a puppy dog. Check out this video of him telling the President he was taking too long in his speech. "Speed it up" he commanded. The country has been going down hill ever since it has allowed the Coporate wing of America use the government to continuously wet their beaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTcL6Xc_eMM

[_Kevin Graham]

Well, the WPA and the CCC made a big difference to workers in the Great Depression. Social Security, Medicare, and the Civil Rights Act have each made a difference in many people's lives. The Farm Bureau certainly improved my grandparents', mother's, aunts', and uncles' lives. The Food & Drug Administraion and USDA inspectors have made the food we eat much safer than it was in the days of Upton Sinclair. And the EPA has made great strides fighting pollution in this country. Oh, sorry--it was the Republicans who started that one!

The fact that anyone could ask such a question is scary in and of itself. What would our country look like today if government stopped providing free education? Social security? Medicare, etc?

Do they really think that the country would be full of self-sufficient, wealth creating millionaires?

Look, in a Capitalistic system, there must ALWAYS be a poorer class. Which means there will always be people working hard for an unlivable wage. Which means we can let them die in the streets or provide some kind of social safety net. Republicans want to take away all the government programs that have effectively improved the lives of tens of millions over the past century. Are they really so deluded as to think they could do this without consequences? There'd be a revolution in the streets in every city. At some point the poorer class will decide it is fed up with being used to make the wealthy wealthier. Even in the face of a borderline depression, due to the greed of wall street, we see Right Wingers trying to take more from the poor and give more to the wealthy. It is absolutely sickening to live in a country that would come up with solutions to give more money to those who actually caused a near collapse of the economy.

But this is a testament to the power of propaganda. If given enough money, the deceivers in the media can convince people that the sewage they're drinking is actually wine, and they should be thankful for it.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I am a supporter of simplifying tax law, cutting defense spending, reducing benefits for future government hires, and experimenting with a voucher-based education system. "Big government" is not what I believe in. What I believe in is a legitimate role for government in regulating public health and the economy, and making sure that basic services and basic economic opportunity are available to everyone. The very conservatism that makes democratic governments wasteful and slow to respond to changing circumstances is also what makes them good regulatory agencies. Unlike profiteering corporations with no accountability to the public, democratic governments cut fewer corners and are more careful to avoid abusing and exploiting people. A successful economy needs both the dynamism of the free market and the restraint of regulatory agencies to channel that dynamism in a constructive direction.

[_Black Moclips]

Ok, I just spent hours on a reply Kevin, and this damn message board deleted it when i hit send. gonna have to wait until tomorrow. Luckily most of it is in world.

[_Dr. Shades]

Luckily most of it is in world.

Which world is it in?

[_Black Moclips]

Which world is it in?

LOL. Narnia? Middle Earth? Azeroth?

I actually meant WORD, as in the Microsoft program.

[_Black Moclips]

**Please re-read. In my editing, several paragraphs and quotes were missing and I had to go back and replace them. Not sure why, but my small posting window will not scroll properly. It always jumps back up top, so its really hard to edit. Maybe its some setting I'm missing? Anyway, sorry for any confusion.**

Hello Kevin. We always seem to meet upon these kinds of threads. I can sense your passion about the subject (though I may view it as misguided). For what it is worth, I enjoy these conversations. Let’s try and keep it nice and civil though.

No, the Federal Government doesn't have any desire. Your boogey man doesn't exist. The Government is comprised of individuals and they do not sit around a large table for 50,000 people to conspire to take more power for themselves. This is the ridiculous image conjured up by FOX News and other Right Wing outlets. The problem with the government is that the 1% are legally permitted to bribe them. That's it. If you get rid of the lobbying and bribery, then government can do its thing without having to serve the special interests.

Oh those poor, innocent government politicians and bureaucrats. If only those nasty evil corporations didn’t offer them money, they wouldn’t have to be so corrupt and give them what they want. They are forced to serve those special interests? You realize how funny that sounds? The fact is that it only takes a couple hundred leaders, some well placed bureaucrats, and thousands of pages of legislation that no one knows or even reads to create, manage, and administer the nightmare we have today in government.

As a side note, as you mentioned above, you DON’T think politicians sit around tables discussing strategy and power, but you DO believe the richest 1% of our country proactively find ways to take advantage of the poor and go out of their way to widen the income gap? Rather than using their time to spend their money and invest their assets, they are driven by the haunting notion that somewhere out there, a poor man just got a raise. NOOOOOO!

As I have stated since day one, the best thing we could do in this country to enact positive change, would be to ban lobbying and make bribery illegal.

I can see what you are saying, and I definitely think there is room for reforms. But on the flip side, lobbying does serve some genuine purposes. Not all lobbyists work for corporations. I support the 2nd Amendment and believe people have the right to have firearms. I think that without the NRA, that right would have been gone a long time ago, overruled by LIBERAL justices. I don’t have the means necessary to make my voice heard in Congress. But I can donate to the NRA and know that my views will be expressed by someone with far more access that I have. So I believe lobbying can serve a useful purpose. But I also think outright banning of all lobbying would have some negative consequences too.

That is a misrepresentation of the "Liberal minded folks." Stop watching FOX News for ten minutes and actually try listening to a Liberal.

BOO! Fox News! Did you jump? You seem obsessed with Fox News with the number of times you mentioned in throughout your post. I hardly watch live news at all, and I’ve never watched the Beck program. I browse a myriad of websites, among them Fox, CNN, Wall Street Journal, etc. My homepage at work is forced to be MSNBC, so I even browse there as well. Do you believe MSNBC and CNN are totally fair and balanced, middle of the road with no bias to the left? Do I need to accuse you in the same vein of being a Rachel Maddow crony?

I have several friends who are liberal in their political views to one degree or another, some very deep and some only slightly. But all of them, just like you, have one thing in common. You all see the answer in more and more government. If we just let the government do more here and spend more money there, we would all be better off. My comments are largely from my own experience and what I believe is true. Should Fox News choose to use my ideas, I can’t stop them! The truth is true no matter who says it!

Uh, you can blame your conservative Icon George Bush for our deficit, thank you very much.

I’m not beholden to the Republican party at all. I’m not sure why you think I will defend them when they don’t deserve it. I’m first and foremost a conservative. I didn’t even vote for Bush, so you can’t blame him on me. I voted for an independent both times (though I suspect I can partially blame Obama on you?). To the extent that Republicans don’t follow conservative principles, I reject them and don’t support them. I would sooner vote for a fiscally conservative Democrat than vote for someone I didn’t trust on the Republican side. I can see good in some on both sides. I’m not as die hard anti-Democrat as you are anti-Republican. Guess what, both their SH#T stinks most of the time. I have no problem admitting that.

At the same time RIght WIng illionaires like the Koch brothers were financing a propaganda campaign trying to scare the hell out of everyone about Socialism.

Lol. Okay, I’ll take a Koch brother and raise you a George Soros. The rich have front men on both sides. Gates and Buffet are democrats. They all push their agendas. So do rich on the right. That is the way it is. Yet you pretend the left is above all of this. I find that funny. All your talk about me using talking points, yet you repeat and parrot many of the views and criticisms made by the left.

You make me sick with your ignorance if you think for a second the Right WIngers give a flying DAMN about the poor or want to help them improve themselves.

Sorry for your illness, yet your answer to my criticism boils down to “Oh yeah, but you guys don’t care either.” You are operating from the mistaken position that everything I say against liberals and democrats must mean that I believe the opposite is true for republicans and conservatives. Yes, I think the leaders of the Democratic party are corrupt, especially Reid and Pelosi. They lead their party and determine its voice, strategy and direction. They would have you believe they care about the plight of the poor. I don’t believe it for a second. Furthermore, I believe the welfare state as its organized now does very little for people other than keep them dependent on government and settle for mediocrity. Not everyone of course. But fundamentally, I believe it is a flawed program, that is administered poorly and inefficiently and generally does not tend to improve over people’s economic status and opportunities.

Does the Republican Party care about the poor? I’m not sure they care any more than Democrats. But it certainly does not benefit their politics to keep people poor. But ultimately, I think most politicians care only for themselves.

News flash Kevin - You can support and help the poor and disadvantaged without supporting the modern day welfare state as we practice it. Personally I think people ought to help one another, and have a duty to do so. But I also think it is wrong for the government to force people to do it through taxation. Something is lost when your charity consists of government ripping it from you under penalty of a crime and giving it to the beneficiary. Serving in a soup kitchen, helping build a house for habitat for humanity, or even ringing the bell for the Salvation Army all benefit the giver and receiver and are far more valuable for the soul. I’m by no means wealthy, and I have been given nothing during my life. But I still find ways to help others and give charitably, on top of my taxes. So I resent any implication that by rejecting the welfare state it makes me or anyone else anti-poor. I’ve earned the right to criticize the government.

That is the stupidest thing said yet. If people tend to float to the Right after becoming wealthy, it is only because they know that by voting for Republicans, they are more likely to be in a position to secure their wealth without actually having to keep working. So in other words, they are really the lazy ones. They don't want to work. Every Right Winger I know is all about making more money for doing less work. They are all about investing money in the stock market, or buying multiple houses and living off renters, etc. These people contribute nothing to society. They create nothing. They simply feed off the poor and watch their quarterly statements with a close eye.

You have an amazingly skewed and warped sense of people. What is your population of known Right Wingers? And every single one of them are just working their asses off for years in school, then in the private sector to become successful just so they can revert to laziness as soon as they can? Wow. Just wow. You need to get out more. You realize how many people you just offended? Probably not. Most conservative folks are normal everyday people with jobs, business owners, and professionals. They have worked for what they have gotten, and want to keep most of it. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. It seems the only Right Wingers you know are high flying Wall Street stock brokers ready to sell their grandma to make a buck. Go start a business Kevin. I think it would be therapeutic for you.

In Capitalism, in order for one person to make money, another person has to lose money.

There you go. You can take your “Stupidest Thing Said” trophy back.

And it only works when the workers are paid less than what they are worth. If a worker produces $100 worth of goods, his employer can only make a profit by paying him less than $100. That is capitalism. Taking advantage of those who actually produce.

And then an encore? How do you know what a worker is worth? How do you know they are being taken advantage of? You need to get out into the normal, everyday business world and see how it works and experience it. All labor is at will. It’s a contract between the employer and the employee, and they AGREE together the value of the employee’s time. You can’t be arguing that everyone’s time is equally valuable, can you?

Education quality is always the same no matter where you go. What changes is the level of education acquired, and that is determined according to demographics.

I agree that the issues with education are largely demographic. So why does the government spend billions and billions on education on promises that do not improve anything? The left promises that if we just spend enough, and pay teachers more, and implement program XYZ, it will get better. But we know it won’t. So it is just more politics at taxpayer expense. It is about power and control.

The government is run by greedy human beings the same as corporations.

I can agree that most politicians are greedy. Gone are the days of selfless public service. But I’ve spent my whole career in the financial world, as an auditor/CPA at two big Four accounting firms, a controller and a CFO in the private sector. I’ve seen tons of businesses from the inside out, privy to how they do business, from large public corporations to small mom and pops. And I’ve yet to see expanse of evil you claim is out there. Sure, you here about the sleezy CEO that gets thrown in jail on TV, and the left leaning media does its best to demonize everyone else. But for the most part, in my experience, most companies operate within the law and do a fairly good job at taking care of their employees.

So naturally they're tempted with bribes, and are more likely to give in since in the context of government lobbying, it is legalized. But this is mainly due to Right Wing efforts.

And then you lost me…. To think only right wingers lobby and they are the cause of all the problems is ridiculous. But again, there are two parties involved, yet you lay all of the blame on the company while excusing the poor politician for having to given in to temptation. At anytime, the politician can put a halt to it. Anytime. I lay more blame on them.

The more "conservative values" canard is a myth that can rely on no historical precedent for support.

Oh there is plenty of support and historical precedence for conservative values. Go look up the Conservative Manifesto of 1937. Many of the same issues we are having today. To the extent a political leader doesn’t follow what I consider conservative values regarding the size and reach of the federal government, then I don’t support them in that action. Very simple. Identifying ways that Reagan or Bush weren’t conservative is interesting, but means nothing to me really. Just proves they weren’t strong enough.

If there is waste and inefficiency, they created it and allow it. Bottom line - things are screwed up right now because all of the politicians want it that way. To think giving the government more authority, wealth and power will fix things, that is insanity.

So what is the answer?

Ultimately, I believe freedom and the free market system of exchange has the best chance of improving the most people’s lives. I think our country’s success has proven that it can work. It rewards effort. It rewards work. It provides untold economic advantages and opportunities for those willing to participate. The private sector has been behind virtually all of our advances in technology, providing innumerable benefits to life and living for everyone here. It is not without its problems, but all systems have their issues. I think the system works best when government intervention is minimal. No bailouts. No stimulus. No subsidies. No propping up one company over another. No tax incentives or loopholes for one industry over another. No giving incentives to businesses to achieve some political goal. In essence, let the true market compete against itself without interference. I agree that there is a role for government in regulation, safety, and the environment. But it’s the government’s corrupt practices and attempts to control the market need to stop.

Did you know the true Conservatives want to do away with public education? Do you agree?

First of all, you don’t get to define or decide who is a true conservative. Personally, I think public education serves a purpose, but there should be choice. We lived in California when our kids were tiny and the school system sucked, so we homeschooled for kindergarten and first grade (we both felt qualified to do that). It was actually a fun experience, but very difficult. I applaud those who can do it with success. But then we moved to the Midwest and moved into a great public system so we decided our kids would be better there. But we pay for it through super high property taxes and frequent fundraisers. I’m fine with a family choosing to homeschool. I know several families who do it and their kids have done just fine in college. So in this matter, I’m pro-choice.

But I also think the federal government has no constitutional authority over my kid’s education. None whatsoever. The education of my children is between me, my kids, their teachers, and to some extent, the local school board. There is nothing here that any clueless bureaucrat in Washington needs to be involved in. Oh, I know they want to spend billions on my behalf, but no thank you.

[_Markk]

It always jumps back up top, so its really hard to edit. Maybe its some setting I'm missing? Anyway, sorry for any confusion.**

Mine did that forever, then the other day I messed with my font sizes, went from normal to small, and eventually went back to normal ...and it doesn't do it any more...go figure?

by the way...great post I couldn't agree more. Lobby-ism is a key item that needs reform, while I am a NRA guy also, I would still like to see a suspension of it to see what difference it makes. The problems with things like this is when you take something away one cannot always
predict the outcome...the old saying of "be careful what you pray for" comes into play. In this case "a black market" type of lobbying would probably increase the "greasing" of the political parties.

Corruption is like water, it will always find a way to leak, and will always travel the path of least resistance, in this case corrupt men and women.

Enjoyed your post
MG