Sethbag wrote:What is an organization but some combination of its membership and its leadership? And how does the membership get off scot free when they approve, sustain, and support the leadership in its mistakes?
Nobody is saying that the members who agree with the mistakes should get off scot free.
How is giving us a laundry list of the various ways in which the large, recognized religions on Earth have failed to live up to any kind of Godly expectations going to help out the Mormon cause?
This is not to give the church a free pass. It is to ask about one's criticism of it. However, I will say that you have alwyas been consistent in saying that you view Mormonism as no worse or better than any other religion.
If so, would it be healthy to reconsider that maybe the LDS church isn't so bad after all?
I might ask you the same thing. When you identify a pattern of manmade churches throughout history on Earth, and then the Mormon church fits right in with that pattern, what does that tell you?
Maybe God at one time led those churches too?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
If you find a church with a clean past, does that mean it is from God? Is that God's standard?
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)
asbestosman wrote:Fair enough I suppose. However, I think most of them may not even consider that other churches which they respect and don't think to criticize have their own share of questions. The idea isn't to get people to criticize other churches, but rather to temper their criticism in light of other things they just let be.
Temper their criticisms. I think you may want to rethink this. This is a forum about Mormonism, so criticisms or praise are warranted. It's not like people here are going out of their way to criticize the church in members faces. Those few who protest outside LDS property do not represent me, and most of them are usually from some EV group out trying to save Mormons.
zeezrom wrote:If you find a church with a clean past, does that mean it is from God? Is that God's standard?
No.
I predict that no one will find a religious organization without a sordid past. Why? They are ran by humans (although we believe ours is directed by God, it is still ran by humans).
sock puppet wrote:Comparing the LDS Church to other churches merely is a comparison. It does not wash clean the LDS Church's history. It does not make it any less "bad after all".
Yeah, so? Did you miss the point where I ask if you likewise criticize other institutions about their skeletons? I didn't claim the comparison washed the church clean. I actually don't consider the church or other churches to be sullied by the past. The responsibility rests on the individuals, not the institution. I don't criticize the Catholics because current Catholics have nothing to do with the Inquisition. I could even see them being God's authoritative church in spite of the Inquisition. However, I condemn the Inquisition itself. This is not about whitewashing anything, but about assigning blame and criticism where it is due and being fair about it.
ABman, I've been a member of no other religion. In my life (behind the Zion Curtain), Mormonism is the only religion that concerns me. If I had once been Catholic, I am certain that I would have an interest in Catholicism, and be looking into its history to see what might lie there in validation or invalidation of its claims. But, I have not been Catholic or the member of any religion but Mormonism. It is the only religion I have been duped by in my life. So my focus is naturally on Mormonism. That I do not focus on (or criticize) another religion makes my criticisms of Mormonism no less valid.
But I generally regard all religion as emanating from a cesspool of lies. One man or a small cabal seeking to gain power over others by claiming that god has told them a message intended for those others. With the wrath of an all powerful (and per the Old Testament, scary as hell and vengeful) god and possible hell fire and damnation awaiting, this evil known as religion has been leveraged many times, and JSJr and Co. is just one example. It is always the brittle point in the scam when it comes to the explanation why god would tell these other men the message for me rather than god telling me directly, god to man in the same fashion these men claim god told them.
Simon Belmont wrote:I predict that no one will find a religious organization without a sordid past. Why? They are ran by humans (although we believe ours is directed by God, it is still ran by humans).
So what's the difference then, Simon? If God's organization of fallible humans into a single church is not actually producing better results, then what's the point? Why should someone become LDS in the first place?
I'm reminded of a clever post that my friend Dane Laverty at Times & Seasons did, "The One True Hot Dog Stand."
If the hot dogs at your favorite stand aren't actually any better than the hot dogs at my favorite stand, then why does it matter which ones I eat?
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13
zeezrom wrote:If you find a church with a clean past, does that mean it is from God? Is that God's standard?
No.
I predict that no one will find a religious organization without a sordid past. Why? They are ran by humans (although we believe ours is directed by God, it is still ran by humans).
Simon Belmont wrote:I predict that no one will find a religious organization without a sordid past. Why? They are ran by humans (although we believe ours is directed by God, it is still ran by humans).
Well, I believe the Academy of Athens was directed by God and run by humans. ...it's sad what happened to Hypatia...
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)