A Very Limited Geography

[_Inconceivable]

Belmont, Schryver & BC,

If you have something relevant, bring it. Weeping, wailing & nashing your teeth is really quite off-putting. Don't you even have one bad argument?

Simon (s),

Is there even a shred of truth to the claims made by the Mesoamerican faith destroyer Meldrum? Seems the faithful have altogether abandoned the clowns trained for the ministry at BYU for a shadetree researcher who at least quotes and bears his testimony of the founding fathers. This guy must really be poop in their noses. I bet they'd sell what's left of their souls to put him away privily.

inc.

[_bcspace]

If you have something relevant, bring it.

Done. I just shredded the entire counter LDS argument being made here by pointing out one simple fact.

[_moksha]

This DNA problem could be handled quite nicely by just assuming that the remaining Lamanites set sail for Easter Island and created many large statues in honor of the coming of the Quorum, thus once again proving its truth.

[_Simon Southerton]

Simon (s),

Is there even a shred of truth to the claims made by the Mesoamerican faith destroyer Meldrum? Seems the faithful have altogether abandoned the clowns trained for the ministry at BYU for a shadetree researcher who at least quotes and bears his testimony of the founding fathers. This guy must really be poop in their noses. I bet they'd sell what's left of their souls to put him away privily.

inc.

Yes, there are shreds. The shreds that fit his story. Meldrum is a Young Earth Creationist and uses the same modus operandi in his Book of Mormon apologetics. But you can't knock his enthusiasm, and yes the BYU apologists would love to be able to sic a Danite on him.

[_Inconceivable]

Is there even a shred of truth to the claims made by the Mesoamerican faith destroyer Meldrum?

Yes, there are shreds.

I mean, specifically referring to the DNA issue. For those who are unaware, Meldrum claims their is Lehite DNA evidence found only in the indiginous tribes of the North Eastern United States.

Obviously he picks and chooses only what bolsters the rest of his argument but the TBM's are eating it up.

[_Roger]

Simon (S.)

Thanks for posting and the update. It amazes me how adept the average LDS apologist can be at salvaging a losing proposition through any means conceivable.

If I remember correctly, the straw most grasped at was the notion that a tiny influx of Semitic DNA into the vast ocean of native American DNA would have been something akin to the proverbial needle in a haystack--essentially there... somewhere, but undetectable. This quote:

“Ten centuries ago a handful of Norse sailors slipped into Newfoundland, established small colonies, traded with local natives, then sailed back into the fog of history. In spite of the small scale of their settlements and the brevity of their stay, unequivocal evidence of their presence has been found. Just six centuries earlier the Book of Mormon tells us, a climactic battle between fair-skinned Nephites and dark-skinned Lamanites ended a millennial dominion by a literate, Christian, Bronze Age civilization with a population numbering in the millions. Decades of serious and honest scholarship have failed to uncover credible evidence that these Book of Mormon civilizations ever existed. No Semitic languages, no Israelites speaking these languages, no swords or steel to make them. They remain a great civilization vanished without a trace, the people along with their genes” (Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church, 2004)

...should put that notion in the grave. But due, apparently, to the resilience of the defend-Joseph-Smith-at-any-cost faction, as represented on this board by Simon Belmont, Will Schryver & Co. it still manages to stumble around... zombie-like.

I am curious about this:

This same technology was used to determine that most of us (Eurasians) have a small proportion of Neanderthal nuclear DNA in our genomes. The nuclear DNA of yet another ancient hominid, Denisovans, was recently found to be present in Melanesians.

Why wouldn't everyone (as opposed to most of us) have a small proportion of Neanderthal nuclear DNA in our genomes?

All the best.

[_Simon Southerton]

I mean, specifically referring to the DNA issue. For those who are unaware, Meldrum claims their is Lehite DNA evidence found only in the indiginous tribes of the North Eastern United States.

Obviously he picks and chooses only what bolsters the rest of his argument but the TBM's are eating it up.

He is claiming that the maternal X lineage found among North American tribes may have been carried to the New World by Book of Mormon people. Even LDS scientists have admitted that the New World X lineage is very distantly related to X lineages found in Asia and the Middle East. The X lineage has been in the Americas for about the same length of time as the other four (A,B,C,D) lineages, ~15,000 years.

[_Simon Southerton]

I am curious about this:

This same technology was used to determine that most of us (Eurasians) have a small proportion of Neanderthal nuclear DNA in our genomes. The nuclear DNA of yet another ancient hominid, Denisovans, was recently found to be present in Melanesians.

Why wouldn't everyone (as opposed to most of us) have a small proportion of Neanderthal nuclear DNA in our genomes?

All the best.

When I said most of us I was a bit unclear. I was referring to Eurasians, which I assumed would cover most reading my boring post.

So far Neanderthal DNA has not been found in Africans. Scientists think that when the ancestors of Eurasians (Europeans and Asians and everything in between) migrated into Europe (out of Africa) about 50,000 years ago there was a small amount of gene exchange (sex) between humans and Neanderthals. Humans who stayed in Africa missed out on the human-Neanderthal liaisons and missed out on the DNA. The amount of Neanderthal DNA present in Eurasians is very small, ranging from about 1 to 4%.

[_asbestosman]

Very Limited Geography? So how small are we talking here--smaller than a Planck length?

[_Roger]

Simon:

When I said most of us I was a bit unclear. I was referring to Eurasians, which I assumed would cover most reading my boring post.

So far Neanderthal DNA has not been found in Africans. Scientists think that when the ancestors of Eurasians (Europeans and Asians and everything in between) migrated into Europe (out of Africa) about 50,000 years ago there was a small amount of gene exchange (sex) between humans and Neanderthals. Humans who stayed in Africa missed out on the human-Neanderthal liaisons and missed out on the DNA. The amount of Neanderthal DNA present in Eurasians is very small, ranging from about 1 to 4%.

Wow. So then the theory would (apparently) be that Neanderthals and humans split from a much earlier ancestor but then later met up again and reproduced?

If you don't mind my probing questions.... I'm curious how scientists can produce geographical interpretations from DNA analysis? Or am I totally misunderstanding/misrepresenting the assertion that all humans go back to a single female African ancestor? Can you put that in layman's terms?

All the best.