A Very Limited Geography

[_Simon Belmont]

Edit: I assume you're talking to me (Simon B.)

Show me the evidence, Simon. E V I D E N C E.

There isn't enough either way. Religion is faith-based, and science is ever-changing.

What you seek cannot be found.

[_Kishkumen]

There isn't enough either way. Religion is faith-based, and science is ever-changing.

What you seek cannot be found.

The existence or non-existence of physical people is not "faith-based." Either there is evidence to justify our opinion that they existed, or there is not. There is vanishingly little reason to suppose that ancient Nephites ever existed in the Americas or anywhere else.

How much trust would you put in the existence of Atlantis?

[_Nomad]

There is vanishingly little reason to suppose that ancient Nephites ever existed in the Americas or anywhere else.

I realize this is the party-line here, but I have done a bit of investigation into the "reasons" to suppose ancient Nephites existed and have found many compelling ones. Mark Wright ("Hashbaz") has made reference (in some recent MDDB threads) to many recent archaeological findings from Mesoamerica.

Over the weekend, I read with much interest the latest news from the El Mirador diggings. El Mirador is the largest metropolis yet discovered in Mesoamerica. It dates to pre-Classic Maya times. They can't even read any of the glyphs from the place. No one realized until just recently how big it was or how technologically advanced they were. They were not lower on the cultural evolution scale than those who followed them, but equal to or superior in many ways. The point is that here is a group of about a million people who were essentially unknown until the past few years. Still only a minor fraction (< 10%) of the ruins have been explored. In Mesoamerica as a whole, less than 10% of the known archaeological sites have been explored. And, most interesting of all to me is that Richard Hansen, who has been heading up the El Mirador site for decades, is a faithful LDS who is known by his friends and closest associates to firmly believe that there is very good reason to suppose that ancient Nephites existed in the Americas.

I think it's a bit premature to make statements like yours above.

[_Kishkumen]

I think it's a bit premature to make statements like yours above.

Pointing at a rock that has not been turned over in the search is not the same as producing evidence. I think it is premature to believe in things that are unattested in the historical record. That is what is premature.

[Guest]

I thought this was one of Mark Wright's most interesting recent posts on this topic:

This past weekend I was at the "Maya at the Lago" conference in North Carolina and I sat down and chatted with George Stuart, who was National Geographic's resident Maya archaeologist for the past 40 years or so (recently given Emeritus status). We were discussing the roughly 6000 sites that are now known from the Maya area thanks to advances in satellite imaging, and I asked him what percentage of them had been excavated. He frowned and held up one finger, and then said that the 1% of sites that have been excavated have only been about 5-10% uncovered, and summed it all up with "And that's why we don't know sh*+".

Here's a Google Earth map with the most updated locations of these 6000 or so known sites in the Maya area (keep zooming in, and more and more will appear pretty much anywhere you click on it): http://mayagis.smv.org/mayasites.kmz
Bear in mind that the names of 99.9% of these sites are modern nicknames made up by archaeologists since we haven't a clue what the ancient names were (with the exception of maybe 10 sites). We haven't recovered any texts whatsoever from about 5,975 of these 6,001 sites and the vast majority of them will never be excavated, so the ancient names of most of these sites are not only unknown, but are essentially unknowable. Despite my conviction that Mesoamerica is the right place for the Book of Mormon, I'm not holding my breath for a "Welcome to Zarahemla" sign to turn up anytime soon, and anyone who suggests that one should have been found by now is woefully uninformed about what we really know about the ancient Mesoamerican landscape.

Link

[_Nomad]

I think it's a bit premature to make statements like yours above.

Pointing at a rock that has not been turned over in the search is not the same as producing evidence. I think it is premature to believe in things that are unattested in the historical record. That is what is premature.

The most respected scholars of ancient Mesoamerica would consider your perspective uninformed and your conclusions premature.

Richard Hansen sees evidence where you don't.

Clark and Sorenson see evidence where you don't.

Mark Wright sees evidence where you don't.

I think I'll withhold judgment for the time being.


ETA: Oh, but you do have the great Mesoamerican scholar "beastie" on your side, so I guess that's something! lol

[_Kishkumen]

Richard Hansen sees evidence where you don't.

Clark and Sorenson see evidence where you don't.

Mark Wright sees evidence where you don't.

I think I'll withhold judgment for the time being.

An appeal to authority is a crappy way to make an argument. Produce the evidence. Pointing at your favorite PhD and saying, "hey, this guy believes it," is no substitute.

E V I D E N C E

If there is nothing out there aside from the 19th century English text of the Book of Mormon that would even suggest the existence of Nephites in the Americas, then I think we can safely say that there is no evidence outside of the text that points to their existence in the ancient New World. The willingness of certain LDS scholars to privilege their faith in this matter is not going to cut it.

[_Kishkumen]

ETA: Oh, but you do have the great Mesoamerican scholar "beastie" on your side, so I guess that's something! lol

Wow, what a moronic statement. I also have the fact that no non-LDS scholar uses the Book of Mormon as a historical guide to ancient America.

You really couldn't have hoped to look more stupid if you had tried.

[_Runtu]

They can't even read any of the glyphs from the place.

That's news to me, since I just read Richard Hansen's discussion of early Maya text from El Mirador. He notes that the iconography and text are slightly different from later Mayan but similar to other glyphs at places such as Kaminaljuyu and Uaxcactun, and he provides a reading of the text. The syntax and phonetic representations are unsure, but not the meaning.

[_Nomad]

Richard Hansen sees evidence where you don't.

Clark and Sorenson see evidence where you don't.

Mark Wright sees evidence where you don't.

I think I'll withhold judgment for the time being.

An appeal to authority is a crappy way to make an argument. Produce the evidence. Pointing at your favorite PhD and saying, "hey, this guy believes it," is no substitute.

E V I D E N C E

If there is nothing out there aside from the 19th century English text of the Book of Mormon that would even suggest the existence of Nephites in the Americas, then I think we can safely say that there is no evidence outside of the text that points to their existence in the ancient New World. The willingness of certain LDS scholars to privilege their faith in this matter is not going to cut it.

What would be the point of once again linking to articles by these LDS scholars of ancient Mesoamerica? It's been done a gozillion times through the years. All you folks do is dismiss what they write as "lying for the Lord" and then you start crying out for "EVIDENCE!" again.

I've read their articles. I've read a lot of the popular non-LDS scholarship on the topic. I've compared what I've read to the text of the Book of Mormon. I see lots of good scientific reasons to suppose ancient Nephites existed.

You wouldn't see good reason if the some glyphs in El Mirador were translated to say "Land of Zarahemla" or even something like "King Zrxmla". Your mind is made up on the basis of 1% of the evidence having been uncovered and examined.

What point would there be in pointing again to the fraction of that 1% that provides a plausible reason to believe there really were Nephites?