A Very Limited Geography

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_Themis
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Themis »

stemelbow wrote:
This appears to be nothing more than sheer dogmatism it seems to me. The derivation is and will perhaps always be in question. While theories abound in regards to it all, nothing is so definitive, it seems.


I missed that in his comments. You might want to be careful of your own.

There are far too many examples of not knowing origins of peoples, like jews themselves, it is just unreasonable, it seems to me, to suggest such clear cut, white and black, thinking on this topic. Indeed as alluded to, even the idea of what could possibly be Lehite DNA is unknown. And as I understand, the assumption that we can understand ancient Israelite DNA based on modern Jewish studies is an absurdity, an assumption, in consideration of the data, that doesn't make much sense.


Then how do they keep doing it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_people

They claims some of their ancestor came from Jerusalem are about 2500 years ago, only a 100 years after Lehi and another group were to have left. We see both cultural evidence supporting their heritage as well as DNA. How do you suppose scientists know this?

In all this, its not the LGT alone that causes problems for the DNA critique of the religion, indeed that would only be a small part of it, but the assumption that we can define the DNA of ancient Israelites and the origins of the "Native" american peoles.


But yet they have been doing just that, and it's not being done by the3 critics, but by scientists, most of whom probably don't know anything about the Book of Mormon.

In the end, this really is a weak argument taken as a whole. Not much of anything but assumption and bias., it seems to me.


The only thing we are seeing is your own bias. The science is not perfect, but is pretty good, and they do know quite a bit, and so far none of it supports LDS claims of Israelites coming to America anciently.
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_asbestosman
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _asbestosman »

Kishkumen wrote:Maybe that will be at about the same time as the mastery of leprechaun tracking to recover their hidden pots of gold.

I have it on good authority that leprechauns have moved off the gold standard. Presently the use marshmallows.

I also have it on good authority that leprechauns are gay. Note their fondness for rainbows.
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_Runtu
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Runtu »

Phaedrus Ut wrote:It's a interesting pot shot taken at Beastie. It's true she's no Michael Coe(who also thinks the Book of Mormon is BS) but I've routinely watched her arguments best those of the LDS LGT group posting on these forums. And If I recall correctly she did a pretty good job showing how Sorenson uses flawed and inaccurate citations to back up his claims of metallurgy in mesoamerica.

Phaedrus


Brant Gardner is probably the foremost Mesoamerica scholar who posts on these boards, and he has been consistently respectful toward beastie and even complimented her on her knowledge and intelligence. It's usually the non-experts who deride and mock her. I wonder why that is.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Kishkumen »

Runtu wrote:Brant Gardner is probably the foremost Mesoamerica scholar who posts on these boards, and he has been consistently respectful toward beastie and even complimented her on her knowledge and intelligence. It's usually the non-experts who deride and mock her. I wonder why that is.


Because they are insecure. That would be my guess.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Kishkumen »

asbestosman wrote:I have it on good authority that leprechauns have moved off the gold standard. Presently the use marshmallows.


Well, marshmallows are yummy.

asbestosman wrote:I also have it on good authority that leprechauns are gay. Note their fondness for rainbows.


There I take issue with your claims. Leprechauns are obviously Ireland's first metrosexuals.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Phaedrus Ut
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

Runtu wrote:Brant Gardner is probably the foremost Mesoamerica scholar who posts on these boards, and he has been consistently respectful toward beastie and even complimented her on her knowledge and intelligence. It's usually the non-experts who deride and mock her. I wonder why that is.


I like Brant and I've always respected his opinions over the years. Although he does still owe me explanations on two subjects for which he said he'd mention more later but still has yet to do so.

Following these discussions for as long as I have it's pretty easy to distinguish between the really bright minds and those who are just full of keyboard bravado.

Phaedrus
_Nomad
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Nomad »

Runtu wrote:
Phaedrus Ut wrote:It's a interesting pot shot taken at Beastie. It's true she's no Michael Coe(who also thinks the Book of Mormon is BS) but I've routinely watched her arguments best those of the LDS LGT group posting on these forums. And If I recall correctly she did a pretty good job showing how Sorenson uses flawed and inaccurate citations to back up his claims of metallurgy in mesoamerica.

Phaedrus


Brant Gardner is probably the foremost Mesoamerica scholar who posts on these boards, and he has been consistently respectful toward beastie and even complimented her on her knowledge and intelligence. It's usually the non-experts who deride and mock her. I wonder why that is.

You're not very attentive. Since this is an area of interest for me, I've followed most all the exchanges between Brant Gardner and beastie. I've seen Brant get the more impatient with her and her nonsense than with any other poster he ever talks with. He's a lot nicer than Mark Wright is to her, but Gardner plainly has little regard for her pretensions to ancient Mesoamerican scholarship. You need to pay closer attention than you do. Or maybe you just see what you want to see and ignore everything else.

But I really have to go now. It's been real ...


ETA: Gardner has a lot of good things to say on Mesoamerican stuff, but I don't think there's any question that Mark Wright is the real LDS rising star in that field.
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_Runtu
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Runtu »

Nomad wrote:You're not very attentive. Since this is an area of interest for me, I've followed most all the exchanges between Brant Gardner and beastie. I've seen Brant get the more impatient with her and her nonsense than with any other poster he ever talks with. He's a lot nicer than Mark Wright is to her, but Gardner plainly has little regard for her pretensions to ancient Mesoamerican scholarship. You need to pay closer attention than you do. Or maybe you just see what you want to see and ignore everything else.

But I really have to go now. It's been real ...


Either I'm not attentive, or I haven't been reading the MDD board in a long time. Either way. I just know that Brant does not treat her with contempt, unlike some other people. I know rather well that he completely disagrees with her (obviously), but somehow he manages to treat her decently.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Nomad
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Nomad »

Kishkumen wrote:
Runtu wrote:Brant Gardner is probably the foremost Mesoamerica scholar who posts on these boards, and he has been consistently respectful toward beastie and even complimented her on her knowledge and intelligence. It's usually the non-experts who deride and mock her. I wonder why that is.


Because they are insecure. That would be my guess.

Yeah, it couldn't possibly be because they recognize that she's a humbug, could it?
... she said that she was ready to drive up to Salt Lake City and confront ... Church leaders ... while well armed. The idea was ... dropped ... [because] she didn't have a 12 gauge with her.
-DrW about his friends (Link)
_Hades
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Re: A Very Limited Geography

Post by _Hades »

Nomad wrote:Or maybe you just see what you want to see and ignore everything else.

Now that crap is funny.
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