Buffalo wrote:I hate to be demanding, but can you provide a scholarly source instead of an LDS apologetic source? Most FAIR articles seem to be an exercise in argumentum verbosium rather than an honest attempt to present all the relevant facts and draw conclusions from them.
Themis wrote:We have already shown that they were not an unknown people even anciently. They would have been closely related to the people of the region they live in.
Where has anyone shown this?
The Lemba example is a great example. How did they know what to compare their DNA to? Also we know what the Book of Mormon tells us of Lehi heritage and what part of the world he is supposed to be coming from. What we have is a lot of DNA samples taken from Native American populations. They have figured out where it originates and about when. They would need to know something about the DNA of east Asia to figure this out. Scientists have been doing this all over the world to get an idea of our DNA, where we come from, and when. Heck they even can tell us that Eurasians have Neanderthal DNA. We know the origins of where the Book of Mormon Lehites say they came from, so we should see DNA that comes from that region. We do not. With the Lemba we do. It's not dogmatic, it's just the current facts which are pretty good.
The origin of Jewish DNA may not be ancient Israel circa 500 BC anyway. We simply don’t know. To make the assumption that we do know is nothing but dogmatic rhetoric. We don’t know. We can theorize and make assumptions, which has happened tons in this field, but that doesn’t mean a whole lot.
The Book of Mormon states Jerusalem, so yes it states where, regardless of your dogmatic assertions. We know from history and science that the ancient Jews are of semantic origin. There DNA would be primary from the Middle east region. We do not see any DNA showing up from there. This is a problem for the Book of Mormon.
Themis wrote:We have already shown that they were not an unknown people even anciently. They would have been closely related to the people of the region they live in.
Buffalo wrote:I hate to be demanding, but can you provide a scholarly source instead of an LDS apologetic source? Most FAIR articles seem to be an exercise in argumentum verbosium rather than an honest attempt to present all the relevant facts and draw conclusions from them.
In spite of all the apologistic blathering, here is the currently accepted scientific conclusion:
There is ZERO evidence of Hebraic DNA found in any North, Central and South American indiginous human that lived prior to the 15th century.
It's just really difficult to get past this isn't it?
Good luck, MesaAmerican diggers of fortune. You are still looking in the WRONG place.
When you guys discover the remnants of 250 THOUSAND Nephites among the innumerable remains of the Lamanites (and their horses and metalergy) round about a dinky hill in the land of Antum (upstate New York, USA), give me a jingle and we'll gab about it.
Inconceivable wrote: There is ZERO evidence of Hebraic DNA found in any North, Central and South American indiginous human that lived prior to the 15th century.
That is the main point. What Stem seems to be confused about, probably becuase of Fair and farms is that we do have a good understanding of the DNA and where it comes from. Are we really to believe that scientists have a good idea of the DNA from east Asia but not from the middle east. Are we really to believe Lehi's group, and the other group, recent ancestors came from east Asia? :)
asbestosman wrote:Very Limited Geography? So how small are we talking here--smaller than a Planck length?
Yes, in other words, Lehi's encampment was so small that a single electron, by stumbling over it, could not find itself in the very next energy level available to it. Good catch there, Abman!
I would like to add that the Lehite genetic material was diluted to a truly powerful homeopathic 30C strength in the Asian DNA pool already previously present. That is, fewer than one base pair of Lehite DNA is present in a number of Mesoamerican DNA molecules as numerous as the atoms constituting our known galaxy. But as with all true homeopathic remedies, the more dilute the remedy, the more powerful, which just helps us understand how such a truly small group of people so thoroughly dominated the religious and political life of the "others" they encountered upon their arrival, for over 1000 years.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Inconceivable wrote:When you guys discover the remnants of 250 THOUSAND Nephites among the innumerable remains of the Lamanites (and their horses and metalergy) round about a dinky hill in the land of Antum (upstate New York, USA), give me a jingle and we'll gab about it.
This has already been debunked under the multi-Hill Cumorah theory. And besides, according to Michael Ash, horses were found in the middle east therefore the Book of Mormon is true.
Inconceivable wrote:When you guys discover the remnants of 250 THOUSAND Nephites among the innumerable remains of the Lamanites (and their horses and metalergy) round about a dinky hill in the land of Antum (upstate New York, USA), give me a jingle and we'll gab about it.
This has already been debunked under the multi-Hill Cumorah theory. And besides, according to Michael Ash, horses were found in the middle east therefore the Book of Mormon is true.
Still,
one hill, two hills..
Even so, where are those cool cow horn helmets Frieburg painted on top of those thimble sized Nephite heads?
hmmm..
Not to feed them any more lame excuses, but I got another theory why everything is missing: little rascals!
