A Very Limited Geography

[_stemelbow]

Ugo Perego is an LDS scientist and he has openly admitted that the A, B, C D and X lineages found in American Indians have been in the Americas for over 15,000 years and are not derived from Israel. How about you read your own LDS apologetics. http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/B ... d_DNA.html

I have no issue with this at all. Its apparent you have missed my point. Oh well. What can I say more?

You accuse me of making assumptions someone else makes and then don't have the decency to apologize for your error.

Hey, I’m sorry. My goodness. Your assumption which I contested was that we should expect to see some sort of modern jewish or middle eastern DNA among modern native Americans. That is the assumption I took issue with. As it was, sure, Stewart himself argued against Murphy’s point, but surely you can see there is overlap between your two positions, right? Afterall Murphy has taken the same assumption as you—we should expect to see mondern middle eastern, or jewish DNA among modern Native Americans. That is the assumption I have challenged from the beginning. Is it not your assumption/position?

Um no mate. This is where it ends with you.

See ya. It’s a shame you are leaving any engagement on this issue.

[_stemelbow]

I can only assume because Stem hasn't properly considered the very sources he is pointing to and the degree to which they do not, in fact, contradict anything that Simon has asserted.

From my understanding every expert in the field disagrees with Simon's assumption--that we should be able to find middle eastern, or jewish DNA among the Native Americans if the Book of Mormon story is true. So why do you claim the above? I don't know.

[_stemelbow]

Allow me to spell it out for you Simon B.

Stemelbow's argument (i.e. brick wall) totally conflicts with the position of a Mormon scientist with a PhD in human molecular anthropology.

You insist I should continue to argue with an apologist who rejects the position of the LDS expert (i.e. hit head against said brick wall)

Stemelbow's argument is with Ugo Perego.

You have completely misrepresented my argument. I have not at all argued with anything Ugo Perego has said. God ahead and provide a reference if you care. That is simply not true, Simon S.

[_stemelbow]

Ugo Perego seems to make the following arguments:
1. We don't know, and can't know, the DNA profile of Lehi and his party or of the other groups that traveled to the Americas such as the Mulekites (presumably the Jaredites were all killed so they don't matter). Since we don't know what their DNA looked like, it is impossible for us to detect it.

That's been my point, obviously. for some reason Mr. Southerton is saying I have argued against Perego. Not so.

2. The DNA profile of Lehi's colony was probably lost due to genetic drift since they were assimilated into a huge population of natives.

He didn't say anything about being "probably lost". He does suggest that genetic drift is certainly a possibility, but we wouldn't know.

3. Searching for the DNA of Lehi's colony is similar in scope to searching for the DNA of the ancient patriarchs or Jesus.

That was really more of a passing additional comment rather than a conclusion. And it seems it’s a true point.

I should note that Perego is only talking about mtDNA. I don't know if his conclusions hold for other types of DNA. Perhaps you could comment about that.

Here is my response to Perego's arguments. The third one is completely ridiculous. Looking for Abraham's or Jesus' DNA is not even close to being analogous to looking for the DNA of one population transplanted to another continent. Abraham and Jesus lived and died in the same general genetic population in which they were born. Lehi and his colony did not.

Its hardly ridiculous. Since we don’t know the DNA of the people in Abraham’s day, why is it so hard to draw this comparison. We certainly don’t know Lehi and co’s DNA.

Perego's first argument also seems a real stretch. He seems to be saying that we cannot exclude the possibility that Lehi and his colony had the same genetic profile that is found in native Americans. That's a tough argument to buy since Lehi and his colony and the Mulekites both originated in the middle east where the genetic population had certain characteristics. It would be extremely unlikely for Lehi and his colony and the Mulekites to have the same genetic profile as a parallel population on a separate continent. Nice try, but no.

I’ve made arguments contesting your theory here, in this very thread. Simon refused to deal with it. Will you?

Perego's second argument may have some legs from what I can tell. However, it still suffers from the fact that it requires reinterpreting 150 years worth of prophetic statements that the Nephites were much more substantial than Perego's argument requires. Oh well, it's not like this is the first time an apologist has thrown past prophets under the bus for the greater good.

It’s pure hyperbole to suggest anyone would have to reinterpret “150 years worth of prophetic statements”.

[_stemelbow]

I wish Perego and all the other vanishing geography crowd had as much airplay as possible for their prophet-busting Book of Mormon reinterpretations. They are happy to present these ideas in apologetic forums safe from the eyes of ordinary Mormons. But they wouldn't dare have them discussed in the Ensign, general conference or Sunday School. I'm not talking about the Limited Geography, which was once briefly discussed in the Ensign. There is a mile of difference between the LGT and the VGT. It would be great to see the masses trying to come to terms with Lehi running smack bang into millions of Native Americans who had been in the Americas for 16,000 years. It takes a pretty "careful" and "serious" bit of apologetics to imagine that out of the Book of Mormon.

I think you're overstating it. But, it doesn't matter. I agree with Perego, the text simply doesn't attempt to discuss such details.

Perego has published scientific papers where he has confirmed that Native Americans have been in the Americas for over 16,000 years. Apparently oblivious to the Flood and the events in the Garden of Eden.

But he's also disagreed with your assumptions, big time. What assumptions you might ask? That w could possibly know the DNA makeup of Lehi and Co (we might not have a clue), and that we have sufficient data to draw tons o conclusions regarding the origin of Native Americans.. That there was no genetic drift among native Americans.

I discussed Perego's disappearing mtDNA lineages argument up front. With nuclear DNA it is virtually impossible for it to go extinct. Also discussed at beginning of thread.

Simply Old Testament true, or at the very least overstated. If there ever was a case when it went exitinct we may never know. But the Icelandic scenario brings up a good substantial example to question your dogmatic assertion here. Does it not?

[_Buffalo]

Its hardly ridiculous. Since we don’t know the DNA of the people in Abraham’s day, why is it so hard to draw this comparison. We certainly don’t know Lehi and co’s DNA.

We know the DNA of people in Siberia 16,000 years ago, but you're suggesting that Semitic DNA only 2500 years ago is a mystery? Think about it, Stem.

[_stemelbow]

We know the DNA of people in Siberia 16,000 years ago, but you're suggesting that Semitic DNA only 2500 years ago is a mystery? Think about it, Stem.

By all means, Buffalo, contest the information I've presented in my arguments. I'm more than willing to listen.

[_Themis]

From my understanding every expert in the field disagrees with Simon's assumption--that we should be able to find middle eastern, or jewish DNA among the Native Americans if the Book of Mormon story is true. So why do you claim the above? I don't know.

CFR

Why then can they find Semitic DNA in the Lemba people. How is it that they can study modern Jews and figure out who they are related to http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html but if two groups that are supposed to be from Israel and migrated to the Americas and flourished into great societies we shouldn't be able to see that DNA.

[_stemelbow]

CFR

Why then can they find Semitic DNA in the Lemba people. How is it that they can study modern Jews and figure out who they are related to http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html but if two groups that are supposed to be from Israel and migrated to the Americas and flourished into great societies we shouldn't be able to see that DNA.

I can't CFR that any more than I can say show me some expert who agrees with him. I simply havne't seen it.

As for the Lemba example, I'm not sure what more to say. I've already addressed it in the link I provided:

While he sharply criticizes traditional LDS teachings because of the lack of homology between modern Jewish and Native American mtDNA, Mr. Murphy inexplicably fails to disclose that the Lemba have virtually no mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups. Dr. Himla Soodyall noted that "using mtDNA the Lemba were indistinguishable from other Bantu-speaking groups."12 Murphy also fails to mention that in contrast to the Lehite colony and the lost ten tribes, which left Israel over two and a half millennia ago, the Lemba are believed be descended from Yemenite Jews who migrated to their current location in Zimbabwe less than a thousand years ago, representing a recent offshoot of post-diaspora Judaism. Yet it is only through the priestly "Cohen Modal Haplotype" that the Lemba have been identified as having a possible Jewish genetic origin at all.

For various reasons the Lemba example doesn't help explain much here.

[_Themis]

I can't CFR that any more than I can say show me some expert who agrees with him. I simply havne't seen it.

You said it was your understanding so I was just curios if you actually could back it up. I guess not.

As for the Lemba example, I'm not sure what more to say. I've already addressed it in the link I provided:

While he sharply criticizes traditional LDS teachings because of the lack of homology between modern Jewish and Native American mtDNA, Mr. Murphy inexplicably fails to disclose that the Lemba have virtually no mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups. Dr. Himla Soodyall noted that "using mtDNA the Lemba were indistinguishable from other Bantu-speaking groups."12 Murphy also fails to mention that in contrast to the Lehite colony and the lost ten tribes, which left Israel over two and a half millennia ago, the Lemba are believed be descended from Yemenite Jews who migrated to their current location in Zimbabwe less than a thousand years ago, representing a recent offshoot of post-diaspora Judaism. Yet it is only through the priestly "Cohen Modal Haplotype" that the Lemba have been identified as having a possible Jewish genetic origin at all.

For various reasons the Lemba example doesn't help explain much here.

Please Please Please Stem do some research outside of Fair and Farms. If you read the wiki article on the Lemba you will find out that their oral stories about their ancestors only state that males came their to obtain Gold. I find it interesting that they do not find any Mitochondrial DNA from the middle east. Who is really being dishonest here about that issue. Certainly not Murphy.