Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

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_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:I do agree that the best way to deal with Will is to ignore him. Will is a narcissist who thrives on any attention of any sort. My participation in this thread does not have to do with trying to change Will in some way, or to alter the dynamics of his relationships with people on this board. My interest is primarily in how apologists react to this. As I said, I didn't grow up LDS so don't know if Will is telling the truth when he assures us that, behind closed doors, other apologists think what he posts is hilarious and only wish they had the nerve to say it themselves.


Right, and I wanted to point out, I've never witnessed anyone laughing at sexist or crass comments by Will, ever. And he hasn't named them, which is strange because like I said he insinuated they exist and so has actually done something worse than naming them. In a way, by naming no one he's named everyone.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

In regards to ignoring Will, there is something I want to point out.

Will just isn’t some crank in Utah, on his own mission to satisfy what ever fantasy he holds about who he is, he is openly part of a faith community that cares very much how it’s members interact and conduct themselves with the world at large. On an even more local level, Will also likes to claim to represent to Apologetics side of the Mormon community.

I think Jack is doing the Mormon Apologist community a favor by pointing this out, if I was a part of a similar community and I saw one of my peers acting out like that in a public fashion, I’d make it my business to go out of my way in a public setting and denounce Will’s actions. You want to separate Will’s behavior from your community before too many people start equivocating the two.
_Buffalo
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Buffalo »

wenglund wrote:With the amazing proliferation of the lynch mob, I think this thread has now reached critical mass and can officially qualify as group hysteria. Perhaps a commemorative medalian is in order--embosed with an icon comprised of pitch forks and torches and the phrase, "Vulgas Mente, multisque unus" (Mob Mentality, many against the one)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Supporting Will in his iniquity won't win you any bonus points in heaven.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Wade, Loran and Belmont,

Remember when I said this?

Loran, Wade and Belmont,

With regards to the OP, I have this to say to all three of you.

Stand for something... besides your "side".

Jersey Girl



THIS is what it looks like:




LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Will Schryver wrote:Had you all been content to stick with the verifiable truth, you might have hoped to convince a few more of the “much-holier-than-thou” among us (Hodges, Bokovoy, et al.) that Will Schryver has been, on rare occasions, a PG-13-rated “naughty boy” who has not shown compunction to employ oblique innuendo and ambiguous double entendre in his repertoire of message board rhetorical devices.


Will, I've not intended to be "holier-than-thou." I should point out that I've been brash and combative online in conversations. Sometimes I still am (though usually this happens on Facebook now, I don't really do message boards any more). So I'm not perfect, I don't claim to be. But I also started to see the fruits of my tone and decided it would be best to make an effort to change some things, apologize to some people, and try to approach things better. Morally I felt it was right, and pragmatically I felt it was more effective. Granted, it hasn't solved all my problems. I'm still occasionally mentioned or made fun of by certain people here, but I don't really come here any more anyway. When I do it's when people point things out to me that they think I might need to see.

All this being said, I've criticized some of the things you've said online, I see it as too bad that you've built this online persona for yourself and I don't know if it holds up in your day-to-day interactions with people. I know sometimes my own bad moods instigated in online conversations have spilled over into real life, and it's one reason I wanted to change things for myself. This thread focuses on misogyny, and while I think the things you said were horrible I've also seen people egg you on. Nicknames, teasing, and things like that, even the people you attack are not entirely free of some blame. I'm not trying to blame the victim, but it seems slightly more colorful than the thread suggests. I don't think that excuses the stuff you've said, I think it helps contextualize it. [I now notice that beastie even pointed this out herself in the thread, with her own responses to Will that egged things on a bit.] I also don't buy the attempt to tie this into some larger narrative about the patriarchal structure of Mormonism. This goes beyond the objective of simply pointing out things Will has said that are inappropriate and hoping he'll stop acting like that. I think he's capable of it.

More disturbing to me are the insinuations of unnamed supporters of yours who laugh about the sexist jokes you make. That, as far as I've ever seen, is simply not true. For the record, when Will was part of the FAIR email list (which neither of us are a part of anymore) I don't recall an instance where any women from this message board were brought up, or really much about this board generally. That could be a memory problem on my part, but I do think I would recall if there was any inappropriate jokes and backslapping because I was sort of a prig back then about complaining about snark and tone and so forth. I'd be interested if Will would be specific, who is chuckling with him on this stuff? He can't really use the excuse that he holds it in confidence because he's the one who brought it up to begin with, thus implicating potentially everyone who he has worked with including people at FARMS (NAMI) and FAIR. I want the record straight that I never saw anyone there encouraging this sort of thing at all.

Finally, I'm more concerned with Will's repeated comments about being able to discern apostates, fifth columnists and so forth, and when I objected to this he said I was naïve and so forth. It is typical of Will, in my experience, to insinuate things with just enough space for plausible deniability, such as when he implied there were people watching David Bokovoy who would impede his academic potential in the workplace, etc. That's just straight up wrong, and actually disturbing to me, and I said as much on the MAD board and to the mods there.

Anyway, I don't really have interest in pursuing this more. If things are called to my attention that I could correct I'll do so, though. Not because I'm being holier than thou, but because despite my imperfections I don't want people to think that Will is more known, important, or relevant than he really is, as far as I'm concerned. Honestly it is embarrassing to have to talk about it, it feels like junior high school.

Just as Trevor’s “Silence Schryver” gambit ultimately failed in its objective and only served to dispel the mirage of his own false reputation, so now has MsJack chosen to break herself on the same stone.


Parenthetically, this is the sort of hyperbolic rhetoric that I find very "Mister Scratch-esque," and it's really lame to me. Why make it so existential? Anyway. To you all I offer the same advice I've offered to people attacked by Mister Scratch. Just don't look. Don't respond. Let it go. If the people here were really so terribly offended or hurt they might be able to make the decision to quit paying attention to Will. It's obvious that he enjoys this stuff, sort of like a game. No need to demand public apologies. He knows where to find you. In the meantime, just ignore him. Demands for repentance ring about as hollow as Will's denial that he's done anything wrong. Just don't look.

Just more evidence that this whole soap opera is a sad affair, as Will deliberately tries to stir the waters, saying

Either way, you've crossed the line now. There's no turning back. You'll have to ride this wave all the way in, for better or worse. I hope you're up to it.

Watch out for the rocks ...


and Scratch dutifully responds to the game with

That sounds an awful lot like a threat, Will. What is it that you're suggesting here, exactly? That MsJack is going to be targeted for a smear campaign by the Maxwell Institute?


Same old, guys.

Just don't look.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Hi there, LoaP. As I said to you recently, I believe that you (as of late, anyhow; one can still see vestiges of the old "snarky"--to borrow your term--LoaP) seem to represent a kind of vanguard in Mopologetics, along with people like Bokovoy and (perhaps) the narrator. This is a Mopologetics that eschews smear campaigns and vendettas and that, instead, favors a scholarly professionalism that has been, at best, a secondary concern of the current, reigning Mopologetic regime.

So, apart from your rather bizarre remarks pertaining to me (that seems to be quite some grudge you're carrying, ol' buddy), I think your comments here are laudable.



I don't really think "mopologetics" as you outline it exists as a viable, unedited category, so when you call me a vanguard it doesn't really make sense to me. I still consider some of what I do as being "apologetic," but I study religious studies and communications generally, a broader focus. Even the FAIR Podcast is something of a mix of these things. You're not really my "ol' buddy" and I'm not yours. My ol' buddies don't put up photographs from private family gatherings on satirical websites and make jokes about sexual dysfunction as they mock me. I noticed you also removed the comment I left on your blog as well. That's weird.

As far as I'm concerned you're simply a character who is part of the circus that embarrasses me and makes me feel bad. Maybe someday we would meet as real people and things would be different. Maybe not. Peace.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 03, 2011 1:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

wenglund wrote:With the amazing proliferation of the lynch mob, I think this thread has now reached critical mass and can officially qualify as group hysteria. Perhaps a commemorative medalian is in order--embosed with an icon comprised of pitch forks and torches and the phrase, "Vulgas Mente, multisque unus" (Mob Mentality, many against the one)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Not really. It's just another culmination of a silly and sometimes awful ongoing internet game in which you and are are also playing our parts.

Thanks, -LifeOnaPlate
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_RockSlider
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _RockSlider »

LifeOnaPlate wrote: ...


I've always liked that Loap dude. Hope all is well with you and yours!

God Bless
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 03, 2011 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Jersey Girl »

The following, for those unfamiliar with the concepts, are truth and intellectual honesty in practice:

LoaP wrote:Right, and I wanted to point out, I've never witnessed anyone laughing at sexist or crass comments by Will, ever. And he hasn't named them, which is strange because like I said he insinuated they exist and so has actually done something worse than naming them. In a way, by naming no one he's named everyone.


LifeOnaPlate wrote:
wenglund wrote:With the amazing proliferation of the lynch mob, I think this thread has now reached critical mass and can officially qualify as group hysteria. Perhaps a commemorative medalian is in order--embosed with an icon comprised of pitch forks and torches and the phrase, "Vulgas Mente, multisque unus" (Mob Mentality, many against the one)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Not really. It's just another culmination of a silly and sometimes awful ongoing internet game in which you and are are also playing our parts.

Thanks, -LifeOnaPlate
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Tator
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _Tator »

My stock in Mr. Plate has increased many fold today.

JGs advice is spot-on. Hope to see more of this, hope it becomes a trend.
a.k.a. Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
_wenglund
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Re: Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote: When you've been the target of Will's filth for a while, you can tell me how to react, LoaP.


After you and others MD regulars have denegrated LDS leaders and faith for years online (at times in ways quite vile), it is understandable that you would feel justified in expressing outrage over a few disparaging remarks directed your way. There is no valid reason to expect that what you dish out with a fire hose, you are obliged to take even in a few drops. The notion of beams and motes can have no bearing here.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
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