How The Church Can Stop Hemorrhaging Members

[_jon]

LMAO... Holy Christ, you're an idiot.

Feeling is mutual except I don't need to call on God to realize you are an idiot.

Only a moron thinks the inaccuracies of a historical depiction because the artist wasn't there are exactly the same as historical inaccuracies due to knowingly hiding things that don't look good.

So you are arguing that the artists for these pictures were intentionally trying to deceive? Isn't it more likely they just went with what they thought it looked like rather then do extensive research?

Oh right, they're Mormon. Of course it was a lie. The Brethren probably ordered them to do it that way too.

Yes, that particular picture is intentionally trying to deceive. It is in a current Church teaching manual and has, therefore, been officially sanctioned by 'The Bretheren'.

[_just me]

No, it's called artistic license. You may have heard of it. I think it's gonna be big.

Hey, that's good. You could also claim that Joseph Smith was a poet, and his lies to Emma and the church about his polygamy were poetic license.

Badumdum!

[_Buffalo]

So you are arguing that the artists for these pictures were intentionally trying to deceive? Isn't it more likely they just went with what they thought it looked like rather then do extensive research?

So you're saying that the artists were just lied to by the church, and not intentionally lying?

[_zeezrom]

For instance, I had no idea that several of Joseph's wives were 14 years old. I found that out during the Warren Jeffs thing, and it was very shocking and hard to deal with.

I'm aware of one or maybe two: Helen K. and Nancy W. (maybe)

But there are several who were younger than 18, which is bad enough. I can see why learning about this during the Jeffs fiasco would be a problem. For me, the shocker was about the secrecy, polyandry, methods used to coerce the girls, and Joseph's advantageous position over the girls. I probably could have salvaged my testimony if there weren't other problems looming on the horizon: Book of Abraham, Joseph's adoration of power, the witnesses, 1st vision, Book of Mormon problems, and on and on and on.... I guess you could say it is a general picture of Joseph Smith that was hidden from view.

How can the Church stop hemorrhaging members? Stop the flow of information! Don't let them look at it. I don't see any other way.

[_Some Schmo]

Feeling is mutual except I don't need to call on God to realize you are an idiot.

But you're an idiot, so your opinion is of no consequence.

Only a moron thinks the inaccuracies of a historical depiction because the artist wasn't there are exactly the same as historical inaccuracies due to knowingly hiding things that don't look good.

So you are arguing that the artists for these pictures were intentionally trying to deceive? Isn't it more likely they just went with what they thought it looked like rather then do extensive research?

Oh right, they're Mormon. Of course it was a lie. The Brethren probably ordered them to do it that way too.

I know you're an idiot, so I'll use small words here for you so you have a small chance at understanding:

If the church knows the history, and uses pictures in their printed materials that don't show it as accurately as possible (especially when accuracy would embarrass them), the church is, in fact, lying.

If I paint a picture of the Titanic, can I paint an airplane and call it "artistic license"? Airplane... ocean liner... what's the difference? Can I get away with saying, "Oh sorry... I probably should have done more research." What if there was an entire organization that wanted people to believe the Titanic was an airplane and used my picture? Are they at fault for picking mine over one that actually shows an ocean liner?

Face in top hat... no top hat at all... what's the difference?

But even if you do understand this elementary point, it doesn't matter, because you're full of crap and can't admit it to yourself. We all get it. Whatever.

[_zeezrom]

One more thing the church needs to do to stop hemorrhaging members: keep lying.

But you know, the right thing to do is to hemorrhage members. It is the right thing. They should look at this like a repentant young man who is about to serve a mission. It is really hard to confess because of the embarrassment.

But you know there are members out there who will stick with the church no matter what (i.e. apologists). These members are the ones who will keep supporting the church after they come clean. Yes, the church will lose say, 1/3 of their active members but after that, the truth will be out in the open, for all to see. Then the church can truly heal and become the church they want to be: a mainstream Christian sect.

[_The Nehor]

So you are arguing that the artists for these pictures were intentionally trying to deceive? Isn't it more likely they just went with what they thought it looked like rather then do extensive research?

So you're saying that the artists were just lied to by the church, and not intentionally lying?

Nope.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Yes, that particular picture is intentionally trying to deceive. It is in a current Church teaching manual and has, therefore, been officially sanctioned by 'The Bretheren'.

Nehor, as soon as you acknowledge that the Church has covered-up and has been less than forthcoming with some of its more disturbing and troublesome history, the less contentious and defensive you will feel about this issue.

Those people and organizations who describe themselves as the most moral, lie, cover-up and deceive too. There are studies which show that a sense of moral superiority can lead to unethical acts, such as deceiving and cheating. "In fact, some of the best do-gooders can become the worst cheats. For example, somebody could rationalize cheating on a test as a way of achieving their dream of becoming a doctor and helping people. In the new study, detailed in the November issue of the Journal of Applied Psychology, researchers find that when this line between right and wrong is ambiguous among people who think of themselves as having high moral standards, the do-gooders can become the worst of cheaters." ( Jeanna Bryner , "Oddly, Hypocrisy Rooted in High Morals," November 15, 2007)

Some people call this "Lying for the Lord". I feel this is never acceptable.

Michael Quinn said, "The tragic reality is that there have been occasions when Church leaders, teachers, and writers have not told the truth they knew about difficulties of the Mormon past, but have offered to the Saints instead a mixture of platitudes, half-truths, omissions, and plausible denials. Elder [Boyd K.] Packer and others would justify this because "we are at war with the adversary" and must also protect any Latter-day Saint whose "testimony [is] in seedling stage." But such a public-relations defense of the Church is actually a Maginot Line of sandy fortifications which "the enemy" can easily breach and which has been built up by digging lethal pits into which the Saints will stumble. A so-called "faith-promoting" Church history which conceals controversies and difficulties of the Mormon past actually undermines the faith of Latter- day Saints who eventually learn about the problems from other sources." (On Being a Mormon Historian, A Lecture by D. Michael Quinn)

I really feel that openness and honesty is the only honorable choice for the Church. I also don't think there is any possible way of turning back the flood gates in this information age, and we will continue to see the Church become more and more open and honest.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor, as soon as you acknowledge that the Church has covered-up and has been less than forthcoming with some of its more disturbing and troublesome history, the less contentious and defensive you will feel about this issue.

And as soon as you humble yourself, repent, and return to the faith your will be less contentious.

Those people and organizations who describe themselves as the most moral, lie, cover-up and deceive too. There are studies which show that a sense of moral superiority can lead to unethical acts, such as deceiving and cheating. "In fact, some of the best do-gooders can become the worst cheats. For example, somebody could rationalize cheating on a test as a way of achieving their dream of becoming a doctor and helping people. In the new study, detailed in the November issue of the Journal of Applied Psychology, researchers find that when this line between right and wrong is ambiguous among people who think of themselves as having high moral standards, the do-gooders can become the worst of cheaters." ( Jeanna Bryner , "Oddly, Hypocrisy Rooted in High Morals," November 15, 2007)

And?

Some people call this "Lying for the Lord". I feel this is never acceptable.

Yes, enemies of the Church use that rote phrase as if it is a common practice. I rebuke the practice (if it is what so many describe it as) but deny it is a problem.

Michael Quinn said, "The tragic reality is that there have been occasions when Church leaders, teachers, and writers have not told the truth they knew about difficulties of the Mormon past, but have offered to the Saints instead a mixture of platitudes, half-truths, omissions, and plausible denials. Elder [Boyd K.] Packer and others would justify this because "we are at war with the adversary" and must also protect any Latter-day Saint whose "testimony [is] in seedling stage." But such a public-relations defense of the Church is actually a Maginot Line of sandy fortifications which "the enemy" can easily breach and which has been built up by digging lethal pits into which the Saints will stumble. A so-called "faith-promoting" Church history which conceals controversies and difficulties of the Mormon past actually undermines the faith of Latter- day Saints who eventually learn about the problems from other sources." (On Being a Mormon Historian, A Lecture by D. Michael Quinn)

I disagree.

I really feel that openness and honesty is the only honorable choice for the Church. I also don't think there is any possible way of turning back the flood gates in this information age, and we will continue to see the Church become more and more open and honest.

I expect no change. Easy access to information will of course increase in information about the Church (and everything else) but I can't see any changes in the Church itself over this.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

And as soon as you humble yourself, repent, and return to the faith your [sic] will be less contentious.

Nehor, not that it matters, but I've never left my "faith". Neither has my family. I have also never met another purported Church member that doesn't feel openness and honesty are the best policy for the Church.

You are certainly an anomaly.

Also, how does valuing honesty make someone not humble?