How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

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_MrStakhanovite
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

On the other hand, the "street preachers," as they identify themselves, who have decided to devote their lives to disrupting the peace of Latter-day Saints as they gather for pageants, dedications of buildings, and even temple worship—these people I do not mind calling anti-Mormons. Many of us have in our minds an indelible picture of one of these preachers, standing outside the entrance to the Salt Lake Temple, shouting insults through a bullhorn at the worshippers, and refusing a polite request to desist out of "common decency" while a young bride emerges from the temple on her wedding day.


I like how Davis defines anti-Mormonism, and associates it with things over the top crude, while the FAIR wiki tries a different approach:

"Anti-Mormon" is not a slur nor is it pejorative in its use; it is a descriptive term for those whose tactics or desires oppose or fight against the beliefs, members, or practices of the Church. Being "anti-" something may be a positive or negative thing, depending upon one's perspective. Almost everyone would be happy to be considered "anti-child abuse." Few people would want to be known as "anti-Semitic.


So right off the bat, Davis makes the term “anti-Mormon” one that is pejorative. Not only do they disrupt weddings, they also can’t help but probably lie about the Church:


To be sure, the identity of the publisher is not the final determinant of whether a book is anti-Mormon, but it can be a preliminary indicator. We can assume that publications of the Utah Gospel Mission and the Utah Lighthouse Ministry, for example, are anti-Mormon, at least in intent. When individuals see it as their life's mission to tear down and destroy the Church of Jesus Christ, either in speech or in writing, their words are, in whole or in part, predictably anti-Mormon.


Contrast with this:

Since good books can be written by bad people and bad books by good people, I prefer to evaluate a book on its own terms.


Davis tries to be fair, but he can’t seem to carry it through

Goes on to say:

But if the author participates in anti-Mormon activities, denounces the church, or engages in behavior defiantly contrary to church standards, his portrayal of the Saints and their history will probably not be scrupulously accurate, much less fair or sympathetic.


So I denounce the Church when it needs to be denounced, I engage in a lot of behavior that is defiantly contrary to church standards (I engage in all seven deadly sins listed here), so according to Davis, my portrayal of the LDS Church and history carries a prior probability of over 50% of not being scrupulous, fair, or sympathetic.

Just to hedge off the poor reading abilities of some here, the quote above contains a disjunction in it (‘or‘), so what Davis actually wrote is that it only takes meeting one of those criteria to incur (and some how justify, which he never does) a high epistemic discrimination against texts.


The ground rule here should be to let each person say for himself what he believes. You may speak for yourself. I will speak for myself. All too often our enemies like to state our beliefs for us.


I like how the author slipped in the word “enemies” here.


Since it is impossible to include everything, any author selects what he wishes to include. If a book about Latter-day Saints shows a strong preference for negative information, I don't mind considering it anti-Mormon.


Again, going off precisely what was written, if a book shows a strong preference for negative information( Davis shows no regard for the accuracy of that information), it can be considered anti-Mormon.


If he presents himself as a Latter-day Saint when in fact he has not set foot inside a sacrament meeting for twenty-five years, we have a right to be suspicious. If he indulges in snide, disrespectful, cruel comments about the Saints and those they sustain as prophets, we should not be surprised if his book is anti-Mormon. I am always happy to be proved wrong in such expectations, but when an author makes no effort to hide his contempt of the Saints and what they stand for, his predisposition is hard to ignore.


I thought this was really odd. An author should hide his bias? No, an author should never engage in that sort of deception.

That was a horrible article. There wasn’t much good advice to be had, just subtle ways to disregard information one doesn’t like. Surprise that Simon likes it?
_Trevor
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Trevor »

MrStakhanovite wrote:Surprise that Simon likes it?


Nope!
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Brackite
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Brackite »

"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_thews
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _thews »

This pretty much sums up the head-in-sand attitude required to dismiss the truth:

Start reading at the beginning. Or turn to a chapter on a subject about which you already know something. If you come across statements that are simply inaccurate or leave a misleading impression, start counting. One or two of these on nonessential matters can perhaps be overlooked. But if they accumulate, if you find yourself saying "Oh, no" or "What?" time after time, the chances are that the book is anti-Mormon.


The truth is not "anti-Mormon" though the so-called answers Mormons are spoon-fed requires them to discount the truth. Portraying this truth as something that must be understood with the correct perspective is a tactic to diminish the facts as not what they seem to be, or as noted above as "nonessential matters" to discount them. The facts dictate that the Book of Abraham is a complete sham that has nothing to do with the pagan papyrus from which it was supposedly translated, but the Mormon-spun explanations for it require the reader to discount the facts. The head-in-hat method of translation using seer stones that existed before the Book of Mormon is one most Mormons know nothing about. The facts dictate that the LDS church has these seer stones in their possession, but to display them would also acknowledge the truth behind them. In conclusion, if a simple question cannot be answered with a simple reply acknowledging the facts, there's a reason... so it's labeled as "anti-Mormon" to keep the truth hidden and the supposed alternate interpretation of that truth disguised as the real truth, when it's actually an outright lie.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_kairos
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _kairos »

And according to Davis Bitton's criteria, is the "Book of Mormon" Broadway musical-book and music, producers,writers and actors: Mormon, Anti-Mormon, or a little/lot of both ?


just asking!!
_Gadianton
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Gadianton »

Interesting Simon, an apologist thinks he could "one up" Hugh Nibley's classic, "How to write an Anti-Mormon book"?

Books published by faithful Latter-day Saint publishers such as Deseret Book, Horizon, and Covenant Communications, as well as articles appearing in BYU Studies, church magazines, and the online Meridian Magazine can safely be assumed not to be anti-Mormon


not so. I think several FARMS reviews can be said to be anti-Mormon due to a heavy handed dismissal of the works of Chapel Mormons.

Here is a summary of Nibley's essay. I copied some of the tactics especially employed by Mopologists. Two points to anyone who can give an example of Mopologetics using the tactics below, three points for the tactics in bold, and 1 extra point if the tactic was used against a Chapel Mormon.

http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/ldsdefense/30.html

Look at how well Nibley's points fit the apologists:

RULE 1: Don't be modest! Your first concern should be to make it clear that You are the man for the job, that amidst a "mass of lies and contradictions" you are uniquely fitted to pass judgment.

RULE 4: Proclaim the purity of your motives, especially your freedom from mercenary considerations.

RULE 5: Proclaim your love for the (chapel) Mormon people.

RULE 6: Allow the (chapel) Mormons a few normal human failings. That will make your story more plausible, establish you as a fair-minded and tolerant reporter, and so render your verdict all the more damning when you choose to lower the beam.

RULE 10: Be a name dropper!

RULE 12: Wave your credentials! Remind the reader from time to time of your "years of intensive research." If you need high authorities you can always promote your helpers to meet the demand.


RULE 18: Use lack of evidence as evidence! (ok, this is more for for apologetics generally)

RULE 22: Discuss motives; read minds!

RULE 26: Enjoy the prerogatives of "unequal scholarship," i.e., "the scrupulous straining at small historical gnats which diverts attention from the silent digestion of large and inconvenient camels

RULE 29: Study the techniques of gossip.
_Simon Belmont

Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Stak wrote:I like how Davis defines anti-Mormonism, and associates it with things over the top crude


I don't see that at all. Dr. Bitton takes great care to not categorize everyone who is not LDS as "anti-Mormon":

Bitton wrote:It would be more than a little ridiculous to think of all who are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as anti-Mormons.


He goes on to say that most people who aren't LDS are:

Bitton wrote:good folks are not anti-Mormons.


Bitton wrote:On the other hand, the "street preachers," as they identify themselves, who have decided to devote their lives to disrupting the peace of Latter-day Saints as they gather for pageants, dedications of buildings, and even temple worship—these people I do not mind calling anti-Mormons.


He is correct here, in that he does not mind referring to the participants in worst things -- those that are, as you say "over the top" or "crude" -- as anti-Mormon. And they most assuredly are anti-Mormon. Dr. Bitton does not make the term "anti-Mormon" exclusively pejorative right off the bat, he explains carefully that not all non-LDS, ex-LDS or others are anti-Mormon, but he goes on to say that some are.

Stak wrote:So I denounce the Church when it needs to be denounced, I engage in a lot of behavior that is defiantly contrary to church standards (I engage in all seven deadly sins listed here), so according to Davis, my portrayal of the LDS Church and history carries a prior probability of over 50% of not being scrupulous, fair, or sympathetic.

Just to hedge off the poor reading abilities of some here, the quote above contains a disjunction in it (‘or‘), so what Davis actually wrote is that it only takes meeting one of those criteria to incur (and some how justify, which he never does) a high epistemic discrimination against texts.


You are not, by Dr. Bitton's definition, an anti-Mormon.

Bitton wrote:But if the author participates in anti-Mormon activities, denounces the church, or engages in behavior defiantly contrary to church standards, his portrayal of the Saints and their history will probably not be scrupulously accurate, much less fair or sympathetic.


He does not say "denounce the Church when it needs to be denounced," he says "denounce the Church," meaning, all of it, every time. I don't believe you do that (yet). The operative word in the next phrase is key: the behavior contrary to the Church must be defiantly contrary. This means you must actively reject Church standards in a rebellious manner. I don't think you are that extreme.

Stak wrote:I like how the author slipped in the word “enemies” here.


Do you deny that many anti-Mormon authors attempt to tell us what we believe?

Stak wrote:Again, going off precisely what was written, if a book shows a strong preference for negative information( Davis shows no regard for the accuracy of that information), it can be considered anti-Mormon.


Precisely. A true scholarly book is a fair assessment from all available "sides," not a one-sided propaganda piece.

Stak wrote:That was a horrible article. There wasn’t much good advice to be had, just subtle ways to disregard information one doesn’t like. Surprise that Simon likes it?


And you are disregarding, even outright dismissing the article simply because you don't like it.
_Simon Belmont

Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Gadianton wrote:Interesting Simon, an apologist thinks he could "one up" Hugh Nibley's classic, "How to write an Anti-Mormon book"?



More than one person can write an article, publication, or book on the same topic, Gadianton.

Also, there is no such thing as a "chapel Mormon." I wholly reject the false dichotomy that you and your buddies love to present.
_Tchild
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Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Tchild »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Also, there is no such thing as a "chapel Mormon." I wholly reject the false dichotomy that you and your buddies love to present.

Dear confused Simon. Chapel Mormonism is more real than the pimples you see on your face when you look in the mirror, or the skid marks on your garments when you change them begrudgingly after four or five days of continuous wear.

I reject your rejection of the chapel Mormon dichtomony.

Simon, A chapel Mormon is one who accepts that there was a literal world wide flood, that accepts that Adam was the first man who introduced death into the world (impossible to believe for all, except for the chapel Mormon) and who accepts that what a prophet of the Lord says is factual truth, even when the prophet has died years ago (unlike you pseudo-Mormon mopologists)

The chapel Mormon rejects you as a person who represents true Mormonism Simon. I reject you as one who knows diddley squat about Mormon belief and teachings too. Maybe having failed to serve a mission on your part is the disconnect? Maybe you are just clueless?
_Simon Belmont

Re: How To Spot an Anti-Mormon Book

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Tchild wrote:Dear confused Simon. Chapel Mormonism is more real than the pimples you see on your face when you look in the mirror, or the skid marks on your garments when you change them begrudgingly after four or five days of continuous wear.


Going nowhere quickly...

I reject your rejection of the chapel Mormon dichtomony.


Reject away. The difference between you and I is I'm right.

Simon, A chapel Mormon is one who accepts that there was a literal world wide flood, that accepts that Adam was the first man who introduced death into the world (impossible to believe for all, except for the chapel Mormon) and who accepts that what a prophet of the Lord says is factual truth, even when the prophet has died years ago (unlike you pseudo-Mormon mopologists)


Oh is it? Well, I know of no one in my chapel who believes in a literal world-wide flood, or that everything all past leaders have said is doctrine.

The chapel Mormon rejects you as a person who represents true Mormonism Simon.


Something that doesn't exist is incapable of rejecting or accepting anything.

I reject you as one who knows diddley squat about Mormon belief and teachings too. Maybe having failed to serve a mission on your part is the disconnect? Maybe you are just clueless?


Well, as I continue to mop the floor with you and others in debate, I'll keep your "rejection" in mind.
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