I admire Joseph Smith.

[_why me]

... I believe that Don Bradley is working on a paper that puts into question that fanny and joseph had a relationship at all. But I could be wrong about this.

Entirely wrong. Not only does his published essay take exactly the opposite line, this was amply covered in a long thread earlier in the year that you yourself participated in. Short memory?

Which is why I stated that I could be wrong. I haven't read his paper. If you can link it that would be great.

[Guest]

The kinds of claims that are made by the faithful for the good character of Joseph Smith Jr. never cease to amaze me. People who make such one sided assessments need to have them called out for what they are: magical thinking at its best (when a belief held in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

Yes, people who make one sided arguments do need to be called out. I am calling you out.

No one said Joseph Smith was perfect. No one in history has ever been perfect. Joseph Smith had many failings, made many mistakes, and -- get this -- he was a human being. People who know a lot more about him that you do (including myself) understand the depth of his character. We realize these things, but understand that he was a good man.

Simon,

Joseph Smith cannot honestly be characterized as an average human being doing the best he could, even when looked at in the context of the times (early 19th century). He was clearly charismatic as are many successful people as well as many of the most notorious conmen and criminals then and now. But his charisma does not balance the scales.

Let's look at the arc of his life as described by his latest Church-approved biographer, Richard Bushman. He was born and raised in a family that believed in and practiced folk magic. As a young man he engaged in fraud as a glass-looker and money digger, taking other people's money in exchange for telling them where they could find non-existent buried treasure, which he falsely claimed to divine with a magic rock.

Seeing how easily his fellow man could be conned, and having no other skills, he undertook to develop and run ever larger and more elaborate cons, often neglecting to think things through enough to make his lies consistent with one another. Thus we have the constantly altered narratives of the first vision, the obtaining of the gold plates, joining the Methodist Chrch in spite of his claim of having been told by God to join 'none of them' (churches), and his demonstrated inability to translate ancient documents in spite of his claims to be able to do so.

We have his deception of his wife and associates in that he committed adultery and only confessed it when caught in the act. He then made up stories about angels with flaming swords in an attempt to justify and continue his adultery. He send other men on missions and married their wives while they were gone, yet he denied this in public and even from the pulpit.

He was an accomplished liar who seemed constitutionally incapable of abiding by the rules that he claimed God had revealed through him for all of mankind. In spite of his Word of Wisdom, he was often seen drunk in public. In spite of the prohibitions against polygamy and adultery in his Book of Mormon, he enthusiastically engaged in both. In spite of his claim to value truth, he conspired to destroy a printing press that was about to reveal it.

And now you wish to convince me that Joseph Smith was a "good man" because you know more about him than I do?

Which among these above claims as to the behavior and character of Joseph Smith are not true?

Many of the conmen and criminals in history had some redeeming characteristics or accomplished some small good for humankind. However, on balance, humankind would have been better off had they never been born.

Look at Joseph Smith's legacy as it exists today. It is a multi-billion dollar corporation that lives off of the donations of its members, contributing less than five percent of its revenue to charity or to help those in need. This corporation operates a religious organization that is managed by a gerontocracy and noted for its racism, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-intellectualism.

A balanced view? Perhaps not. But it is the one that I have gained having spent more than half my life as a member of the Church.

It is hard to imagine what you could possibly put on the table that would balance the scales for Joseph Smith or the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

[_why me]

The kinds of claims that are made by the faithful for the good character of Joseph Smith Jr. never cease to amaze me. People who make such one sided assessments need to have them called out for what they are: magical thinking at its best (when a belief held in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

Imagine what would happen to a 39 year old male today who did the things that Joseph Smith did. Actually, it does not take much imagination. Just look at the Prophet Warren Jeffs.

Were the 39 year old Joseph Smith alive today, he would very likely be in prison for one or more of the following crimes:

- Statutory rape (Fanny Alger and others)
- Fraud (Glass looking for money)
- Banking and securities violations (Kirtland Safety Society)
- Conspiracy to commit a felony (in the case of the destruction of the Expositor printing press)
- Polygamy

Lesser crimes and misdemeanors:

- Public drunkenness
- Alienation of affection

Yep, he was a real man of God that Joseph Smith, a fine example to all. Imagine how far one with a record like that of Joseph Smith would get in the legal system today just because his wife and friends vouched for his "good character".

Better yet, imagine how a Church Court would handle such an individual.

Except you left out some major factors. The people who tarred and feathered him got off scott free. The people who murdered him got off scott free. The people who destroyed Mormon printing presses got off scott free. And the people who killed Mormons like hunting deer, got off scott free. And the people who destroyed Mormon homes got off scott free too. Heck, it was open season on Mormons. And the blackmailers got off scott free too.

Now when we take all the above and put them into an apple barrel we can understand the mindset of the people at that time and see the context of why Joseph Smith did what he did and the behavior that he exhibited.

And who was imprisoned for killing indians? Strange world back back and a different set of frontier laws.

[_why me]

Simon,

Joseph Smith cannot honestly be characterized as an average human being doing the best he could, even when looked at in the context of the times (early 19th century). He was clearly charismatic as are many successful people as well as many of the most notorious conmen and criminals then and now. But his charisma does not balance the scales.

Let's look at the arc of his life, as described by his latest Church approved biographer, Richard Bushman. He was born raised in a family that believed in and practiced folk magic. As a young man he engaged in fraud as a glass-looker and money digger, taking other people's money in exchange for telling them where they could find buried treasure, which he falsely claimed to divine with a magic rock.

Seeing how easily his fellow man could be conned, and having no other skills, he undertook to develop and run ever larger and more elaborate cons, often neglecting to think things through enough to make his lies consistent with one another. Thus we have the constantly altered narratives of the first vision, the obtaining of the gold plates, and the demonstrated inability to translate ancient documents in spite of his claims to be able to do so.

We have his deception of his wife and associates in that he committed adultery and only confessed it when caught in the act. He then made up stories about angels with flaming swords in an attempt to justify and continue his adultery. He send other men on missions and married their wives while they were gone, yet he denied this in public and even from the pulpit.

He was an accomplished liar who seemed constitutionally incapable of abiding by the rules that he claimed God had revealed through him for all of mankind. In spite of his Word of Wisdom, he was often seen drunk in public. In spite of the prohibitions against polygamy and adultery in his Book of Mormon, he enthusiastically engaged in both. In spite of his claim to value truth, he conspired to destroy a printing press that was about to reveal it.

And now you wish to convince me that Joseph Smith was a "good man" because you know more about him than I do?

Which among these above claims as to the behavior and character of Joseph Smith are not true?

Many of the conmen and criminals in history had some redeeming characteristics or accomplished some small good for humankind. However, on balance, humankind would have been better off had they never been born.

Look at Joseph Smith's legacy as it exists today. It is a multi-billion dollar corporation that lives off of the donations of its members, contributing less than five percent of its revenue to charity or to help those in need. This corporation operates a religious organization that is managed by a gerontocracy and noted for its racism, misogyny, homophobia, and anti-intellectualism.

A balanced view? Perhaps not. But it is the one that I have gained having spent more than half my life as a member of the Church.

However, it is hard to imagine what you could possibly put on the table that would balance the scales for Joseph Smith or the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

And his name will be had for good and evil. Amazing how predictions come true.

Here is a point. Joseph Smith was instrumental in creating something beautifu---the LDS church. And it represents all that is good on this earth and gives its members are wonderful heart and soul. Strange that an evil conman could create such beauty in people.

[_why me]

Joseph Smith cannot honestly be characterized as an average human being doing the best he could, even when looked at in the context of the times (early 19th century). He was clearly charismatic as are many successful people as well as many of the most notorious conmen and criminals then and now. But his charisma does not balance the scales.

Let's look at the arc of his life as described by his latest Church-approved biographer, Richard Bushman. He was born and raised in a family that believed in and practiced folk magic. As a young man he engaged in fraud as a glass-looker and money digger, taking other people's money in exchange for telling them where they could find non-existent buried treasure, which he falsely claimed to divine with a magic rock.

Seeing how easily his fellow man could be conned, and having no other skills, he undertook to develop and run ever larger and more elaborate cons, often neglecting to think things through enough to make his lies consistent with one another. Thus we have the constantly altered narratives of the first vision, the obtaining of the gold plates, joining the Methodist Chrch in spite of his claim of having been told by God to join 'none of them' (churches), and his demonstrated inability to translate ancient documents in spite of his claims to be able to do so.

We have his deception of his wife and associates in that he committed adultery and only confessed it when caught in the act. He then made up stories about angels with flaming swords in an attempt to justify and continue his adultery. He send other men on missions and married their wives while they were gone, yet he denied this in public and even from the pulpit.

He was an accomplished liar who seemed constitutionally incapable of abiding by the rules that he claimed God had revealed through him for all of mankind. In spite of his Word of Wisdom, he was often seen drunk in public. In spite of the prohibitions against polygamy and adultery in his Book of Mormon, he enthusiastically engaged in both. In spite of his claim to value truth, he conspired to destroy a printing press that was about to reveal it.

And now you wish to convince me that Joseph Smith was a "good man" because you know more about him than I do?

Which among these above claims as to the behavior and character of Joseph Smith are not true?

It is hard to imagine what you could possibly put on the table that would balance the scales for Joseph Smith or the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I wonder how the life of the early Paul would measure up to your scrutiny? Or for that matter, any prophet before he got the calling. And what about the first apostles? What a group of righteous men. :=) It seems that god calls interesting people to do his work.

[Guest]

The kinds of claims that are made by the faithful for the good character of Joseph Smith Jr. never cease to amaze me. People who make such one sided assessments need to have them called out for what they are: magical thinking at its best (when a belief held in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

Imagine what would happen to a 39 year old male today who did the things that Joseph Smith did. Actually, it does not take much imagination. Just look at the Prophet Warren Jeffs.

Were the 39 year old Joseph Smith alive today, he would very likely be in prison for one or more of the following crimes:

- Statutory rape (Fanny Alger and others)
- Fraud (Glass looking for money)
- Banking and securities violations (Kirtland Safety Society)
- Conspiracy to commit a felony (in the case of the destruction of the Expositor printing press)
- Polygamy

Lesser crimes and misdemeanors:

- Public drunkenness
- Alienation of affection

Yep, he was a real man of God that Joseph Smith, a fine example to all. Imagine how far one with a record like that of Joseph Smith would get in the legal system today just because his wife and friends vouched for his "good character".

Better yet, imagine how a Church Court would handle such an individual.

Except you left out some major factors. The people who tarred and feathered him got off scott free. The people who murdered him got off scott free. The people who destroyed Mormon printing presses got off scott free. And the people who killed Mormons like hunting deer, got off scott free. And the people who destroyed Mormon homes got off scott free too. Heck, it was open season on Mormons. And the blackmailers got off scott free too.

Now when we take all the above and put them into an apple barrel we can understand the mindset of the people at that time and see the context of why Joseph Smith did what he did and the behavior that he exhibited.

And who was imprisoned for killing indians? Strange world back back and a different set of frontier laws.

why me,

Aside from the fact that the misdeeds you list were in response to a great deal of provocation by Joseph Smith and the early Mormons, misdeeds by others do not in any way justify the behavior of Joseph Smith. His lies, fraud and adultery were a cause of the misdeeds against him and the Mormons, not a result of them.

Your assertion here constitutes nothing more than a weak and fallacious (tu quoque) argument.

A look at the lives and behaviors of genuinely good and honorable leaders of new movements such as Mahatma Ghandi or Nelson Mandela shows that they were generally humble men who eschewed violence and lived what they preached.

Not so with Joseph Smith. His profile of a charismatic narcissist is more in line with that of other religion cult founders such as David Karesh, Jim Jones and more to the point, Warren Jeffs.

[_Ceeboo]

Morning why me,

Here is a point. Joseph Smith was instrumental in creating something beautifu---the LDS church.

An opinion, yes?

And it represents all that is good on this earth

A slight overstatement, perhaps?

and gives its members are wonderful heart and soul.

Indeed, I have shared with many LDS people who have wonderful hearts and souls.

Strange that an evil conman could create such beauty in people.

I think Mr. Smith "created this beauty in people" right after he created the stars and the sun, right? (Day 8 ?)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_DrW]

I wonder how the life of the early Paul would measure up to your scrutiny? Or for that matter, any prophet before he got the calling. And what about the first apostles? What a group of righteous men. :=) It seems that god calls interesting people to do his work.

Truth be told the, the leaders, world changers, and innovators that I look up to and admire do not tend to be religionists, mythical or otherwise.

A quick comparison of folks like Benjamin Franklin, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Ghandi, Winston Churchill, and Albert Einstein to the icons of Mormonism (fictional or otherwise) such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Nephi, and Boyd K. Packer indicates that god has a less than stellar track record in selecting from among the available talent to find those who do his work.

[_sock puppet]

I wonder how the life of the early Paul would measure up to your scrutiny? Or for that matter, any prophet before he got the calling. And what about the first apostles? What a group of righteous men. :=) It seems that god calls interesting people to do his work.

Why me, that is one of the most eloquent arguments I've heard against the modern LDS Church. You point out quite well that according to the Bible and early Mormon history, elohim picks the unwashed, 'interesting' people. So why then are today's Brethren just a bunch of milquetoasts in dark suits, white shirts and ties?

[_Markk]

I think that even the D & C has Joseph Smith imperfect. I never considered him to be perfect at all. And I don't believe the LDS church teaches that he was perfect. But it does teach that he fulfilled his mission on earth and he was murdered.

Come on be honest...this is how the church portrays Joseph Smith... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xVw6PsSinI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp8cSi8LBYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S88rcN3U ... re=related

Where in these movies does it show Joesph courting his future wives?

Where does it show him digging for money, or fighting with his apostles and leaders?

Please give me number of which you would scale the 4 men I gave you as to being a Godly example? Name the 5 worst thing that Joseph Smith did in his life, according to history?