I admire Joseph Smith.

[_Markk]

Why me, that is one of the most eloquent arguments I've heard against the modern LDS Church. You point out quite well that according to the Bible and early Mormon history, elohim picks the unwashed, 'interesting' people. So why then are today's Brethren just a bunch of milquetoasts in dark suits, white shirts and ties?

I did hear once that Monson farted at the dinner table?

Kidding aside great point.

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon,

Joseph Smith cannot honestly be characterized as an average human being doing the best he could, even when looked at in the context of the times (early 19th century).

Oh, he was definitely not average.

He was clearly charismatic as are many successful people as well as many of the most notorious conmen and criminals then and now. But his charisma does not balance the scales.

What are you saying here? All charismatic people are conmen?

Let's look at the arc of his life as described by his latest Church-approved biographer, Richard Bushman.

Oh, right. You're poisoning the well here by discounting the work because the biographer was "Church-approved." Rough Stone Rolling was the 2005 Best Book Award from the Mormon History Association, 2005 Evans Biography Award from the Mountain West Center for Regional Studies at Utah State University, received a great deal of praise from organizations like The Christian Science Monitor, Christianity Today, Providence Journal, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and the New York Times Book Review. So, it is unfair of you to outright dismiss it because you don't like it. It's obviously a credible source.

He was born and raised in a family that believed in and practiced folk magic. As a young man he engaged in fraud as a glass-looker and money digger, taking other people's money in exchange for telling them where they could find non-existent buried treasure, which he falsely claimed to divine with a magic rock.

Do you understand how common folk magic was in Joseph's time and place? It makes perfect sense that the Smith family would buy into it. Joseph did not make much money at it (about $14 a day).

Seeing how easily his fellow man could be conned, and having no other skills, he undertook to develop and run ever larger and more elaborate cons, often neglecting to think things through enough to make his lies consistent with one another. Thus we have the constantly altered narratives of the first vision, the obtaining of the gold plates, joining the Methodist Chrch in spite of his claim of having been told by God to join 'none of them' (churches), and his demonstrated inability to translate ancient documents in spite of his claims to be able to do so.

This is a typical argument from omniscience. as is most of your post.

A balanced view? Perhaps not.

Definitely not. The fact that you think there is some semblance of balance in your view is very telling, and fits perfectly with your constant need to poison the well.

But it is the one that I have gained having spent more than half my life as a member of the Church.

And you believe that gives you some sort of credibility?

It is hard to imagine what you could possibly put on the table that would balance the scales for Joseph Smith or the Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The truth, of course.

[_sock puppet]

He was born and raised in a family that believed in and practiced folk magic. As a young man he engaged in fraud as a glass-looker and money digger, taking other people's money in exchange for telling them where they could find non-existent buried treasure, which he falsely claimed to divine with a magic rock.

Do you understand how common folk magic was in Joseph's time and place? It makes perfect sense that the Smith family would buy into it. Joseph did not make much money at it (about $14 a day).

That JSJr was an unsuccessful conman until he found his golden Bible does not exonerate the fact he was a conman. Common or not, it was illegal in the State of New York at the time to charge money for glass-looking. So it was not something that the majority of the people of the State of New York could condone nor suffer to be done. JSJr was formally charged and brought before a judge in 1826 on allegation of being a glass-looker for hire, a violation of the laws of the State of New York. That elohim of yours, he sure kept company in the 19th Century with some rogue characters, like JSJr.

[_DrW]

[
Oh, right. You're poisoning the well here by discounting the work because the biographer was "Church-approved." Rough Stone Rolling was the 2005 Best Book Award from the Mormon History Association, 2005 Evans Biography Award from the Mountain West Center for Regional Studies at Utah State University, received a great deal of praise from organizations like The Christian Science Monitor, Christianity Today, Providence Journal, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and the New York Times Book Review. So, it is unfair of you to outright dismiss it because you don't like it. It's obviously a credible source.

Simon,

How in the world could you read what I wrote and take away from it the idea that I was discounting the work of Richard Bushman?

If you will read again what I wrote, you will see (I would hope) that I am gladly taking Richard Bushman at his word. The misdeeds that I attributed to Joseph Smith were described in "Rough Stone Rolling".

You claim that folk magic was commonplace in the environment in which Joseph Smith grew up. I would say the fact that he was hauled into court and convicted of a crime for practicing it would indicate that, regardless of how commonplace it was or was not, his practice of it for money was against the law, and therefore a criminal activity.

(ETA: I see that sock puppet addressed the latter issue already. Sorry for the redundancy.)

[_DrW]

Where do you come up with this crap, Simon? The director of the FDA doesn't just look at test results and if he or she has a good feeling approves the new drug. There are numerical standards that the testing of a new drug must achieve, both in efficacy towards treating the targeted symptoms and illness and in minimizing the side effects, before it gets FDA approval. The FDA director and department heads don't sit around a table and bear their testimonies about the new drug, and from that they decide the drug is approved or denied.

As someone who has experienced the interminable agony of the new drug approval process, the image you invoke of FDA officials sitting around a table bearing their testimonies as to the safety and efficacy of new drug put me in ROTFLMAO mode.

Thanks, sock puppet. You provided this day's dose of delight.

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon,

How in the world could you read what I wrote and take away from it the idea that I was discounting the work of Richard Bushman?

I think you might want to read the language you chose to use. By saying (and I am paraphrasing here) "the latest Church-approved biographer" you were poisoning the well. If it was not intentional, could you leave the colorful adjectives out of it?

If you will read again what I wrote, you will see (I would hope) that I am gladly taking Richard Bushman at his word. The misdeeds that I attributed to Joseph Smith were described in "Rough Stone Rolling".

If we're going to continue talking about this, I will have to assume you've read RSR -- have you?

You claim that folk magic was commonplace in the environment in which Joseph Smith grew up. I would say the fact that he was hauled into court and convicted of a crime for practicing it would indicate that, regardless of how commonplace it was or was not, his practice of it for money was against the law, and therefore a criminal activity.

(ETA: I see that sock puppet addressed the latter issue already. Sorry for the redundancy.)

I am aware of the legality of seeing / glass looking / divining / etc. My point was that, yes, I acknowledge that he unsuccessfully attempted to make some money doing this, as did a lot of folk in his time and place -- and he may have believed it worked; certainly other people did or they would not have hired him. It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make Joseph Smith a con-artist either. I am unsure why this is such a problem.

[_Nightlion]

JSJr was formally charged and brought before a judge in 1826 on allegation of being a glass-looker for hire, a violation of the laws of the State of New York.

Mr Sock E Law, was Joseph Smith convicted? No? So why mention it? That is mere persecution.

[_sock puppet]

I am aware of the legality of seeing / glass looking / divining / etc. My point was that, yes, I acknowledge that he unsuccessfully attempted to make some money doing this, as did a lot of folk in his time and place -- and he may have believed it worked; certainly other people did or they would not have hired him. It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make Joseph Smith a con-artist either. I am unsure why this is such a problem.

Simon, JSJr was not merely unsuccessful in attempting to make some money--by the way, he did, per your own post, $14/mo. He was breaking a law, a law designed to protect the New York citizenry from charlatans and fraud. If there was no glass looking for hire going on, and taking advantage of poor, unsuspecting New York property owners, then there would have been no need for the New York Assembly to enact that law. So it is beside the point that "a lot of folk in his time and place" did the same thing. That JSJr counts among many lawbreakers somehow exonerates him? It's a weak, misplaced apologetic. god's worthy vessel should not be tainted with the stains of a common conman.

For example, why all the clean shaven, dark suits, white shirts and corporate tie types populating the GAs today? Why not some known Ponzi scheme operators like Travis Wright in Utah or Daren Palmer in east Idaho? After all, there's 'a lot of folk' that have been running Ponzi schemes in the last 10 years. JSJr would not qualify for high office in the Mormon Church today because of his chicanery and checkered past.

You see, when you advance the folk-magic-was-common apologetic, you indict the current Mormon Church for not following god's lead in having picked a known conman to be his prophet of the restoration? Why does the Mormon Church of today not have these colorful characters at the podium of GC? (Remember what happened to Paul H Dunn when he was exposed in the press--the Brethren retired him to emeritus status.)

Please, don't come here and insult the intelligence of those who read this Board with such pathetic apologetics. Up your game, Simon. The folk-magic-was-common apologetic causes your tribe more problems that it is designed to solve.

[_sock puppet]

JSJr was formally charged and brought before a judge in 1826 on allegation of being a glass-looker for hire, a violation of the laws of the State of New York.

Mr Sock E Law, was Joseph Smith convicted? No? So why mention it? That is mere persecution.

Dear Prophet Nightlion, your devotion to JSJr is admirable. Let me, though, give you a bit of an example that is not as emotionally charged.

You know who Al Capone was. Was he a mobster? Not convicted of it. Was he a bootlegger? Not convicted of it. Was he a murderer? Not convicted of it. Was he a tax evader? He was convicted of this one. The fact that Al Capone was not convicted of being a mobster, a bootlegger or murderer does not mean he is one whit less any of those dastardly titles.

The historical record is replete with evidence that JSJr was a glass-looker and that he charged for it. It was against a New York state statute to do so. He was even charged and a preliminary hearing conducted with witnesses regarding those charges. The fact that he did not stand trial and be convicted does not change what the historical record reveals about JSJr and his specious character.

[_cafe crema]

Do you understand how common folk magic was in Joseph's time and place? It makes perfect sense that the Smith family would buy into it. Joseph did not make much money at it (about $14 a day).

Well in 1860 you could homestead for 1.25 an acre and out right purchase an acre for 3 to 5 dollars, so 14.00 a day seems pretty darned good. How many people now make enough in one day to buy 4 to 11 acres of land? Creflo Dollar comes to mind, I bet he does, and Swaggart and Baker and so many others like them.

That folk magic was a common scam doesn't make it okay any more than the abundance of MLM scams today makes them okay. A cheat is a cheat.