LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

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_Droopy
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _Droopy »

So you are Ok with closed shop unionization. Great.


No, I'm not. But if a group of employees wish to attempt to form one, there is no way in a free society they can be forcibly restrained from doing so by the force of the state.

However, if the employer is hostile to the idea, and refuses, then, in that same free society, there can be no government coercion such that the employer is forced to accept such a situation by law under penalty of sanction.

If employees strike, sabotage, or otherwise attempt to
punish the employer for his resistance to unionization, he should be free to fire them and hire others willing to work, not at arbitrary, negotiated union wages, but at market wages (what their labor is actually worth, in other words).

To recap suppose we have a union of two people: Bill and John. Their employer plans on hiring a third person. Bill and John tell their employer that they'll only work for him unless that extra person belongs to their union. Otherwise they walk.


Then the options are:

1. The employer accepts.
2. The employer declines. They walk, and the employer hires two new workers.
3. The employer declines, and the workers walk off the job, protected by the force of the state from being fired, and protected by the infamous Norris La Guardia Act (which virtually exempted union members from criminal prosecution and accountability for even the worst mass violence and property crime) and the Wagner Act (one of the greatest departures from the concept of the rule of law and individual liberty in American history) and strike, shutting down production and forcing any other workers there may be to strike with them or face intimidation and physical violence.

The employer cannot fire the striking employees without breaking the law (union jobs being for some reason sacred, as opposed to non-union jobs, in which when one decides to cease working, his association with his employer ends) and only the union, protected by the NRLB, can negotiate new terms of employment. Don't tell me the employer is "free." Don't tell me the man looking for a job in a heavily unionized town or highly unionized trade, but doesn't want to join the union is "free." Don't tell me the union member, forced into the union against his will after working in a non-union factory for years (and historically, only 30% of a factory population need to support unionization to take the entire factory into compulsory unionism) is free. Don't tell me the union employee who would rather continue to work than waste his time and lose his house in a long term walkout is "free" when he faces physical violence and late night phone calls saying "We know where your daughter goes to school." is free.

In the past, in highly unionized towns, in which a large number of people were in the union or sympathetic to it (everyone is "in the Klan," so to speak) not only did the federal government refrain from interfering in union sponsored violence, so long as it was union goal oriented, but in the rare circumstances in which union thugs were actually caught and prosecuted, convictions were rare.

That's all a closed shop is. But you support this, so score one for the free market.


No, its patently not. A closed shop is compulsory unionism enforced by government, in which a worker seeking to feed his family and pay his mortgage must join and support the union or not work. The independent worker who does not want to pay the dues, wants no part of union politics, and does not support the concept of such unionism, has no choice in the matter.

Contrary to your fairy tale version of things here, closed shop unionism, precisely, strips the individual of his right to negotiate with an employer as an individual and come to terms as an individual with that employer. Its not about freedom at all but about coercive herdism.

"Closed shop" unionism is government enforced compulsive unionism. That's what it is, and that's what it does.

Oh wait. I guess not. You don't know what you are for. I wont pretend to figure out what you think the difference between "moral" and "ethical" is,


The philosophical concept of ethics is broader and covers other aspects of the human condition just "morality" proper, in its human relations sense.

but the political and ethical argument traditionally employed against our friends Bill and John doing what I described above is a fear of a labor monopoly developing as unions consolidate.


Uh...let me educate you my child. The core, fundamental purpose of a labor union - all of them regardless of trade or profession - is precisely to monopolize both collective bargaining and the available pool of labor in a particular industry or trade.

The key, central purpose of the monopolization of both collective bargaining with the company in the employee's names, and of the labor pool for a specific plant or within a specific trade, is to artificially raise wages (and other economic amenities) above market rates by artificially limiting/controlling the available quantity of labor in that plant or trade.

That is why unions exist, and that is their fundamental purpose. That is the purpose of the historic, defining characteristics of virtually all unions: strikes, sabotage, physical intimidation and terror, mob violence against persons and property, and political corruption. Forcing higher wages by limiting entry into a trade was the fundamental purpose of the Medieval guilds as well, of which modern unions are a close relation.

And they were all secularists in the sense of favoring a secular political sphere. Franklin was given to ceremonialism, but that's stretching it given what was being talked about. If by "secularist" you mean "atheist" then that's not how the term is understood in this context. There are privately religious secularists. Paine was a deist too, by the way.


What does this mean?
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_EAllusion
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:
No, its patently not. A closed shop is compulsory unionism enforced by government, in which a worker seeking to feed his family and pay his mortgage must join and support the union or not work.


You are aware that labor law is an amalgam of government intrusions into labor negotiations precisely because the government strictly bans unfettered unionized labor negotiation, right? I don't favor the current system, but that system is an uneasy compromise between unions and those who want to crush them. Unions would kill for labor law being abandoned with open season on unionizing and strikes/slow downs. Closed shops are illegal, incidentally. They were made illegal under Taft-Hartley, which modified the aforementioned Wagner Act. Union shop, which exists in many states, is a mostly effective equivalent, but true closed shops aren't even legal. Closed shops don't need to be enforced by a government beyond the government providing its standard role as an ultimate arbitrator and enforcer of contracts. Awesome posting, Droopy.

The independent worker who does not want to pay the dues, wants no part of union politics, and does not support the concept of such unionism, has no choice in the matter.


She has the choice not to take the job. All of a sudden you sound like a bleeding heart liberal who complains that we need to regulate all manner of business practices because people are forced by their circumstances to work for someone. But in reality you're all for it when businesses use their ability to leverage negotiations to push people into undesirable working circumstance, but are against it when unions leverage their labor value. What gives? What would you say for someone arguing for a living wage law because a person is being "forced" by a business to work for subsistence wages? Probably some hyperbolic nonsense about agency. Well, tell that to yourself.

The philosophical concept of ethics is broader and covers other aspects of the human condition just "morality" proper, in its human relations sense.


In reality, ethics and morality are used interchangeably in philosophy and common parlance. But perhaps you could start another thread and attempt to explain this barely coherent sentence.

Uh...let me educate you my child. The core, fundamental purpose of a labor union - all of them regardless of trade or profession - is precisely to monopolize both collective bargaining and the available pool of labor in a particular industry or trade.


The core purpose of a labor union is to leverage the collective value of the labor supply to maximize compensation and working conditions. The more people folded into the union, the more powerful this leverage becomes; hence a strong incentive to monopolize over time. I'm skeptical of true labor monopolies forming in most circumstances without government aide much in the same way I'm skeptical of energy monopolies forming. Interorganizational competition keeps that at bay, but funny that you should take the liberal 'script on monopolization including its corrupting influence on prices in the market. And it's all because, ultimately, that labor unions usually support Democrats.

That is why unions exist, and that is their fundamental purpose. That is the purpose of the historic, defining characteristics of virtually all unions: strikes, sabotage, physical intimidation and terror, mob violence against persons and property, and political corruption.


Read this and look at yourself in the mirror. Good God, Droopy. Speaking of mirrors, this is the exact mirror of the naïve lefty who would say the same of corporations, acting all corporationy. This is obviously untrue on the face of it, given the ample history of lots of unions not doing this. Heck, the local social worker union hasn't murdered anyone in at least 4 months.

So that forces you to argue that that's only because governments keep them at bay. That's half-true, but only in the basic sense that the government keeps all manner of organizations from descending into intimidation and violence to get what they want. This is kinda offensive because unions spent years before the Great Depression being mostly on the receiving end of violent union busting financed by powerful monied interests. You neglect pesky things like strikes being broken with military and mercenary attacks, union leaders being murdered and imprisoned - simply for being union leaders - in droves, etc. That might help put ugly behavior into context, yet it all just gets distilled into "Union thugs!" At least you ignored the "Unions were useful back when working conditions were poor, but now they are pointless" talking point. You're just all "screw unions!"

And they were all secularists in the sense of favoring a secular political sphere. Franklin was given to ceremonialism, but that's stretching it given what was being talked about. If by "secularist" you mean "atheist" then that's not how the term is understood in this context. There are privately religious secularists. Paine was a deist too, by the way.


What does this mean?[/quote]Separation of church and state and not making public policy decisions based on private religious beliefs, primarily. You could at least wiki the concept before talking about it.
_Obiwan
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _Obiwan »

I don't know if it's been said already, but ALL of Christianity itself is "Conservative".
Of course, in non-LDS Christianity because of the doctrines of men mingled there-in, there are a bit more "Liberals" who pervert Christianity, just like Christian Anti-mormons pervert actual Christianity, but Christianity itself as well as really most religions are "conservative" based as the main and dominate ideology.

Those who can't understand how Mormons could be conservatives/Republicans clearly don't understand the ideology's in question, their moral and intellectual problems and benefits, and are more than likely liberal themselves.

For example, the Social Justice of the Bible is not Liberal or Liberal Christian Social Justice. The later is a perversion of that which is in scripture. Also, Satan is the author of all perversion. Thus, this is why Mormons and most Christians are conservatives. It's because conservative ideology's fit with the doctrines of the scriptures and laws and teachings of God. Of course, liberal "false characterizations" of Conservatism and Conservatives is not said ideology's, hence one reason why they can't understand how we could be conservative. They are seriously deceived on all levels.
_Obiwan
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _Obiwan »

Runtu wrote:
bcspace wrote:In addition, it is not possible for a Democrat to pass the TR questions without lying and they also fit some of the definitions of apostasy given in the CHI.


I've never understood the need to put these additional litmus tests on church members. The existence of GAs who are also Democrats, like Marlin Jenson, James Faust, and Melvin Hammond, puts the lie to this notion that being a Democrat is akin to apostasy.

Elder Hammond once told me of walking up and down a long hallway with President Faust in Lima, Peru, for four hours. What did they talk about? Democratic prospects in the upcoming elections.


Traditional Democrates that you mention were never "liberal"..... They were conservatives.
For example, JFK would today be considered a George Bush Right-Winger.

The modern Democrat party is ran by and ideologically associated with the left-wing radicals of the 60's. This is not Mormonism on any front, and thankfully NONE of our top leaders that I know of have been corrupted yet on this. The Democrats you mention are actually Conservatives for the most part.
_The Nehor
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _The Nehor »

Droopy wrote:Thank you, yet again Nehor, for a well thought out, concise and logically coherent series of non-answers, evasions, and what you apparently believe are clever, cutting witticisms.


Yes, I figured it would be impossible for you to respond in a substantive, intellectually serious discussion with you and that you would resort to this.

While I want to be a serious interlocutor and have a stimulating, intellectually serious discussion, you, as always, want to be an amateur stand up comic.


Oh, I left "stimulating" off from above. Please assume it was there.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_EAllusion
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _EAllusion »

Barack Obama is more like George W. Bush than JFK. Yet here you are, posting what you posted.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

The hilarity of all this is that Droopy claims to almost hate X because that's what Newsmax and WorldNetDaily tell him to feel about it, but once X is spelled out for him in terms he can understand by someone who knows what he is talking about, Droopy then says he supports X. But when this contradiction is brought to his attention, he goes back to saying he is against X because his blind loyalty to the religion of Right Wing idiocy is more important to him than his infrequent moments of legitimate education. This sort of intellectual suicide runs rampant in the circles Loran travels, particularly the Extreme fringe of the Right Wing web and LDS apologetics.
_EAllusion
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _EAllusion »

Sources you like, newsmax, wnd, etc.,



I don't recall using either source in recent memory, and a number of years ago, when I did, it was strictly on issues of mainstream provenance that was being reported in similar fashion by other sources, including "highbrow" intellectual reviews


My first memory of you involves you breathlessly quoting worldnetdaily and co. pieces about "war on Christmas" stories that turned out to range from misleading to outright false and certainly weren't found in more mainstream, highbrow sources. I believe your argument was that leftists where attacking Christian symbols by saying "happy holidays" to destroy nuclear families so nothing would stand in their way to shackling everyone to the government teet. You know, insane stuff like that.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/93 ... -Christmas

Notice that your wnd story gets rebutted by a Chicago Tribune piece almost immediately. That didn't stop you, because you are you after all, but the idea that you were just relying on this source to outline some mutually agreeable facts is clearly wrong.

Not only that, but that thread has this quote from you, "I've quoted and used information from both WND and Newsmax.com. excellent and substantive sources for news and commentary that simply provide perspectives and facts that the mainstream media studiously self censor. "

So above you say you only quote WND and newsmax when it was a matter of mainstream provenance. And here you say that you WND and newsmax are excellent sources who you use to provide information that is ignored by mainstream sources. You need to build a time machine so you can visit 2005 Droopy and slap him.

(As a bonus, here's a quicky I just found where I mock you for another ginned up false accusation you got along the same lines:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/93 ... lent-Night)

The etc. includes many sources that you clearly are still using. I'm sure you linked frontpagemag the other day, which is on par with wnd and newsmax in quality and perspective. This post is a trap though. So if I were to link this habit of yours - let's say this post:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... 8&p=171536

wherein you rely on dubious sources like frontpagemag and worldnetdaily to make the case that Iraq really was loaded with WMD's. (Coincidnetally, this was in a thread where you also where arguing that "leftists" can't be Mormons.) If I point out this is a fringe, partisan sourcing issue, you're just going to run to other sources of a similar stripe and shout "See! You can find these facts anywhere!" A 9/11 truther could do the same. The point is simply that you like these kind of religious right news sources and those sources have the habit I outlined.
_Gadianton
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _Gadianton »

LOL! I just noticed this, and I wonder if Droopy will ever come back after this.

So Droopy, what "high brow" sources were fuming over the "war on Christmas?"


thanks EA!
_Kevin Graham
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Re: LDS Conservatives Are Idolatrous?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

That's priceless EA
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