Calling & Election made sure: The Case of William Schryver

[_Jersey Girl]

p.s. I have to go back FIVE YEARS!

You all fight at will....I'll be back.

[_Kishkumen]

I am sure this is all some horrible mistake--this claim about him bragging about having his calling and election made sure in other contexts.

[_Jersey Girl]

Here's one:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=38076#p38076

His phrasing is identical to the more recent post. What? Does he have these saved on the computer or something?

Going back "in"...

[_Dr. Shades]

I am sure this is all some horrible mistake--this claim about him bragging about having his calling and election made sure in other contexts.

Good catch, Kishkumen. He said that long before he had reached 1,000 posts.

[_Kishkumen]

Good catch, Kishkumen. He said that long before he had reached 1,000 posts.

Yes, I wonder whether he was joking. Any thoughts?

[Guest]

Pahoran,

Please help me understand.

Okay, I'll help you understand.

Understand first that "Christine Jonsen" killed her children because she was mentally ill, not because she was operating under a logical understanding of LDS doctrine.

Understand second that "Christine Jonsen" was not her real name, and we have no reason to believe you actually knew her.

Understand third that, with that disgusting bit of polemical demagoguery on your track record -- not merely a few insulting throwaway lines directed at message board opponents, but a serious, considered attempt to smear the Church of Jesus Christ by association, and one that you pertinaciously maintained for the lifetime of the thread in question -- you have absolutely no standing whatsoever to criticise any other message board participant.

On any message board.

Anywhere.

In the world.

Does that help you understand?

Regards,
Pahoran

After midnight on a bitterly cold 4th of February, not far from our home at that time in Kennewick Washington, a young Mormon mother bundled up her two children, loaded them in her car and drove to the middle of the cable bridge between Kennewick and Pasco. She kissed her children goodbye, lifted them one by one over the bridge railing, and dropped them into the Columbia River.

This young mother later recollected hearing faint splashes in the icy water 40 feet below. She did not hear crying and so felt that her children had not suffered too much before they died.

Why?

As she recounted later, this young woman believed that she was fallen and sinful, and that with her as a mother, her two boys had little chance of growing up otherwise.

In accordance with the teachings of her Mormon faith, she believed that if her two children died before the age of accountability, they would automatically go to heaven. In fact, they would go to the Celestial Kingdom. She believed that she herself would be cast into outer darkness for their murder, but since she was going to hell anyway, she selflessly decided to at least try to save her children.

This true story apparently had a traumatic effect on Pahoran when he first about it on MADB several years ago. He has apparently never forgotten it. As is evident from his post above, it still bothers him even after all this time. This story should bother any Mormon who can get past the fog of faith and understand some of the logical ramifications of their unfounded belief.

Perhaps it bothers Pahoran because, for just the briefest instant when he read this, Pahoran realized that this young mother's actions on that February night were perfectly logical given her cherished but delusional Mormon beliefs.

In fact, if Mormon belief in this regard were carried to its logical conclusion, hers was an act of supreme love and sacrifice in view of her belief that children who die innocent and before the age of accountability will, without fail, inherit the Celestial Kingdom.
____________________________________________

Reference: A detailed account of these murders; “To Save Their Souls”, can be found in Anne Rule’s non-fiction work entitled, “No Regrets and Other True Cases” (Simon and Shuster, 2006). In her recounting of this story, Anne Rule gave the pseudonym "Christine Jonson" to this young mother.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Mr. Schryver first mentions his Calling and Election Made Sure on May 9th, 2007 to The Dude.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1819&p=38076&hilit=calling+and+election#p38076

However, I’m really sorry to disappoint you, but like I told you before, I’ve already got my calling and election made sure, so I really can’t go wrong from here on out unless I shed some innocent blood – and we both know I ain’t gonna find any of that here.

So not only did he say that well before his 1,000th post, but he mentions that he's said it before, ostensibly before May 9th, 2007. Mr. Schryver doesn't hit 1,000 posts until August 3rd, 2009. That's when he first mentions getting his Certificate of Godhood.

V/R
Dr. CamNCforMe

[Guest]

I recognised that her act was determined by her abnormal psychological state; i.e. her mental illness.

I further recognised that trying to locate its cause in LDS doctrine, as you did then, and have done again, is a piece of cheap, unscrupulous demagoguery of which Goebbels would be proud.

I agree with you about this being due to mental illness and not her Mormon faith. At the same time, I think it is possible that DrW genuinely thinks religious belief could be directly responsible without being a Goebbels.

A mother's pre-meditated murder of her children is certainly an act that is difficult to understand, much less justify. In a number of cases that come to mind, the mother did this for her own perceived self interest. There have been situations where mothers have killed their young children in order to be
with a new man, for example.

Such was no the case here. While this Mormon mother was not held blameless, it was pretty much agreed that she was acting out of desperation and according to her (unfounded) beliefs.

The Mormon mother in Kennewick was depressed. She was having financial problems and other issues and had sought help from her Bishop shortly before drowning her children.

No one is claiming that the Church teaches that one should murder their children before the age of eight so that the children can go to the Celestial Kingdom. What I am claiming is that when a religious organization teaches fabricated, wholly unfounded, ridiculous doctrines in the name of God, that organization has some responsibility for the unintended consequences.

Again, this Mormon mother took literally the Mormon teachings that young children inherited the Celestial Kingdom if they should die before the age of accountability. As she herself described, with this teaching in mind, she did what she thought was best for her two boys under the circumstances.

If you really think that LDS teachings were not a factor in these murders, simply ask yourself if this Mormon mother would have acted in the same way under the circumstances had she believed as Catholics do, and held instead the unfounded Catholic belief (at the time) that unbaptized children enter purgatory after death.

Further to the issue of mental illness in this case, please keep in mind that one recognized symptom of mental disease (delusional disorder) in adults is the persistence of unfounded belief in the face of evidence to the contrary.

For those who would like a reference, see the Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR)
__________________________________

{Edited for Pahoran to read "had she believed as Catholics do" instead of "been Catholic". Pahoran has a point about (the unfouded belief in) infant baptism in the Catholic Church (see below).}

[_beastie]

I am willing to discuss the "Gino" and "Christine" event if it is split from this thread. I believe that Pahoran is deliberately trying to divert this thread, and I think this thread should stay on topic as much as possible.

[_Pahoran]

I agree with you about this being due to mental illness and not her Mormon faith. At the same time, I think it is possible that DrW genuinely thinks religious belief could be directly responsible without being a Goebbels.

A mother's pre-meditated murder of her children is an act that is difficult to understand. In a number of cases that come to mind, the mother did this for her own perceived self interest, in order to be unincumbered with children so she could be with a new man, for example. This was no the case here.

The Mormon mother in Kennewick was depressed. She was having financial problems and other issues and had sought help from her Bishop shortly before drowning her children.

No one is claiming that the Church teaches that one should murder their children before the age of 8 so that they can go to the Celestial Kingdom. What I am claiming is that when a religious organization teaches fabricated, wholly unfounded, ridiculous doctrines in the name of God, that organization has some responsibility for the unintended consequences.

But the murder was not the consequence of the Church's teachings. If you had one honest bone in your entire body, you'd admit that fact. It was the consequence of her abnormal emotional state.

Again, this Mormon mother took literally the Mormon teachings that young children inherited the Celestial Kingdom if they should die before the age of accountability. As she herself described, with this teaching in mind, she did what she thought was best for her two boys under the circumstances.

That's a brazen lie, as you intend and prefer. The fact is that this clinically depressed mother made a hideously bad decision due to her depressed state, and explained it to herself in terms of her belief system.

Had she been a Baptist, she would have explained it differently, and her children would still be dead, because her mental illness was the determining factor.

Had she been a Catholic, she would have explained it differently, and her children would still be dead, because her mental illness was the determining factor.

Had she been a Calvinist, she would have explained it differently, and her children would still be dead, because her mental illness was the determining factor.

And as Beastie herself pointed out to you: had she been an atheist, she would have explained it differently, and her children would still be dead, because her mental illness was the determining factor.

If you really think that LDS teachings were not a factor in these murders, simply ask yourself if this Mormon mother would have done the same had she been Catholic and held instead the unfounded Catholic belief (at the time) that unbaptized children enter purgatory after death.

Thank you for demonstrating, yet again, that it is possible (at least in America) to get a Ph.D. in a scientific discipline and remain utterly pig-ignorant about everything outside your area of study.

Had she been a Catholic, you complete dunce, her children would have been baptised as BABIES!

I'm beginning to think that maybe Kishkumen has a point. Maybe you just hold this utterly unsupportable opinion because you're as thick as two short planks.

But that would require you to also be completely ignorant of the fact that mentally ill people don't act rationally. They just find ways to rationalise their irrational actions after the fact.

And even if we do accept that you are less well-informed than the average high school sophomore, we still have to account for the fact that you previously accepted -- however reluctantly -- that the mother's mental illness was a sufficient explanation for her actions.

No. All things considered, I still hold to the view that your malice, spite, and complete lack of scruple is the sole motivation for your continued attempt to push this pack of lies.

Further to the issue of mental illness in this case, please keep in mind that one recognized symptom of mental disease (delusional disorder) in adults is the persistence of unfounded belief in the face of evidence to the contrary.

For those who would like a reference, see the Diagnostic Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR)

Does this mean that if Kishkumen still maintains that you are posting in good faith, he must be mentally ill?

Regards,
Pahoran