Here is an example of where your tithing is spent...

[_maklelan]

Where did the money come from to buy the land, animals and machinery?

I'll save you the step: Yes, if we follow the trail back far enough we will arrive at tithing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Obviously you do. Can you provide a reason that doesn't come down to a simple assertion you make about what God's true church would and wouldn't do?

Are any of those working there 'called' to the job?

Like I said, there is usually a senior missionary couple or two that gives tours and does other administrative stuff. Is a service mission wrong if the service is for a church entity?

[_harmony]

Mak, I'm not going to rehash what I've said previously on this board, but... I live this every day. I live in a farming community where the church owns thousands of acres in 2 of the biggest corporate farms in the area. Are we resented? Hell, yes! Why? Because the church skews the markets with the amount of product they drop with every harvest, and the expenses they have are not as high because of the number of missionaries called to work for the church-owned corporations. Those workers aren't just in the office doing administrative tasks. They're out working on pumps, driving tractors, driving trucks, doing maintenance work.

Does these corporate farms donate anything to our food banks? No. Do they donate to charitable organizations as corporate sponsors? No. Do they attend fundraisers for community groups, as official representatives of some of the largest corporate entities in the area? No. Are they good community partners, hiring their laborers from the community? No. Are their administrative and leadership staff all LDS? Yes. Does that piss people off? Yes.

You can put your head in the sand all you want... I live with this.

And I stand by the idea that if these corporate farms are self-supporting, then EVERYthing they produce that is profit should be donated to the poor. Otherwise, we're practicing priestcraft.

[_maklelan]

Mak, I'm not going to rehash what I've said previously on this board, but... I live this every day. I live in a farming community where the church owns thousands of acres in 2 of the biggest corporate farms in the area. Are we resented? Hell, yes! Why? Because the church skews the markets with the amount of product they drop with every harvest, and the expenses they have are not as high because of the number of missionaries called to work for the church-owned corporations. Those workers aren't just in the office doing administrative tasks. They're out working on pumps, driving tractors, driving trucks, doing maintenance work.

Does these corporate farms donate anything to our food banks? No. Do they donate to charitable organizations as corporate sponsors? No. Do they attend fundraisers for community groups, as official representatives of some of the largest corporate entities in the area? No. Are they good community partners, hiring their laborers from the community? No. Are their administrative and leadership staff all LDS? Yes. Does that piss people off? Yes.

You can put your head in the sand all you want... I live with this.

And I stand by the idea that if these corporate farms are self-supporting, then EVERYthing they produce that is profit should be donated to the poor. Otherwise, we're practicing priestcraft.

This sounds more like small town quarreling than legitimate fundamental concerns with their model. If they're not participating as much as they should in the community then that's an issue, but I don't think it's realistic to expect the church to prohibit the use of service missionaries just so they don't make as much money. I also disagree that investing in a for-profit business to supplement the church's income is priestcraft. Priestcraft is preaching to get gain. This has nothing to do with preaching, it's just a business owned by the church.

[_Obiwan]

Harmony.... Several of your statements are complete lies. I actually DO know because I've worked with several Church sponsored projects from farms, to water, to land all across the country (Utah, Nevada, Hawaii), working with the people who work those projects, and I know for a fact that those projects are VERY closely tied to their communities in ALL normal respects other corporate entities do. Yes, they tend to use missionary's and other volunteers much more than other companies, but that's really the only thing you said in your statement that's factual.

Further, you keep repeating the LIE that the "books aren't open".
I again repeat, that all these so-called "Corporations" of the Church ARE IN FACT "Corporations". That means their books are in fact open, per law in their respective areas, shareholders, etc. by the way.... I'm an expert in Corporations and LLC's, so I know what I'm talking about, it's what I do every day and have for years now. I set up companies nationwide.

[_jon]

I again repeat, that all these so-called "Corporations" of the Church ARE IN FACT "Corporations". That means their books are in fact open, per law in their respective areas, shareholders, etc. by the way.... I'm an expert in Corporations and LLC's, so I know what I'm talking about, it's what I do every day and have for years now. I set up companies nationwide.

Excellent Obiwan, can you point us in the right direction to view the open books on the City Creek Mall?
Thanks in anticipation...

[_harmony]

Harmony.... Several of your statements are complete lies. I actually DO know because I've worked with several Church sponsored projects from farms, to water, to land all across the country (Utah, Nevada, Hawaii), working with the people who work those projects, and I know for a fact that those projects are VERY closely tied to their communities in ALL normal respects other corporate entities do. Yes, they tend to use missionary's and other volunteers much more than other companies, but that's really the only thing you said in your statement that's factual.

I'm not in Utah, Nevada, or Hawaii. And I work for a national non-profit and have relationships with all the other non-profits in the area, and the 2 LDS owned corporate farms here do NOTHING in the communities. NOTHING. And after all these years, everyone would be very surprised if they did. So don't try to tell me my business.

And thank you for verifying that LDS owned corporate farms use volunteer labor, a significant expense for non-church owned farms, thus have an unfair advantage in the market place.

Further, you keep repeating the LIE that the "books aren't open".

That is no lie. If you can publish the annual report of the tithes of the church, showing income and where the money goes, do so. If not, you can't refute the fact that the books aren't open.

I again repeat, that all these so-called "Corporations" of the Church ARE IN FACT "Corporations". That means their books are in fact open, per law in their respective areas, shareholders, etc. by the way.... I'm an expert in Corporations and LLC's, so I know what I'm talking about, it's what I do every day and have for years now. I set up companies nationwide.

I wasn't talking about the company's books. I was talking about the accounting for the tithing funds.

[_harmony]

I also disagree that investing in a for-profit business to supplement the church's income is priestcraft. Priestcraft is preaching to get gain. This has nothing to do with preaching, it's just a business owned by the church.

Why does the church need income above the tithes of the members? Especially if they don't use that income to further the mission of the church?

The church should never have control of a business that makes a profit. Every church owned business should donate their entire profits to the mission of the church (and I've never seen a statement yet saying the mission of the church is to get rich). If the church makes money, the church is guilty of priestcraft... preaching for gain.

[_harmony]

I again repeat, that all these so-called "Corporations" of the Church ARE IN FACT "Corporations". That means their books are in fact open, per law in their respective areas, shareholders, etc. by the way.... I'm an expert in Corporations and LLC's, so I know what I'm talking about, it's what I do every day and have for years now. I set up companies nationwide.

Excellent Obiwan, can you point us in the right direction to view the open books on the City Creek Mall?
Thanks in anticipation...

Okay, that made me laugh!

[_Chap]

I again repeat, that all these so-called "Corporations" of the Church ARE IN FACT "Corporations". That means their books are in fact open, per law in their respective areas, shareholders, etc. by the way.... I'm an expert in Corporations and LLC's, so I know what I'm talking about, it's what I do every day and have for years now. I set up companies nationwide.

The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not publish accounts.

When asked about this in an interview with a German reporter before the Salt Lake Olympics, the then President of the Church replied as follows:

Reporter: "In my country, the…we say the people's churches, the Protestants, the Catholics, they publish all their budgets, to all the public.
Hinckley: [agrees]
Reporter: "Why is it impossible for your church?
Hinckley: "Well, we simply think that the…that information belongs to those who made the contribution, and not to the world. That's the only thing. Yes."

Here is a video of the whole interview online. The bit transcribed above is at 13:40 minutes in.

Of course it is impossible that President Hinckley was trying to mislead the viewers into thinking that members of the CoJCoLDS do have access to their church's accounts (they do not). But it is not easy to see what else he was intending to convey by these words.

Any suggestions? Unlike the 'god was once a man' business in the Larry King interview, the 'avoiding casting pearls before swine" defense does not seem to be worth attempting in this case.

[_just me]

Chap, that is very interesting. I have never seen or heard that quote/interview before. Thanks for posting it!