Is the Mormon Church dishonest...?

[_Obiwan]

Stating "facts" learned from years of learning and being a Mormon doesn't somehow make said facts "non-existant".

Sorry I don't have a "repository" of every single moronic anti-mormon claim "answered" that I can pull from to PROVE my statements to you.

I'm simply telling you guys what I've learned and seen for myself.
If you can't handle first person testimony, then that's not my problem.

This board is not a THESIS board, it's a discussion board. I'm discussing.
Not every word is required to be "proven" beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm a "witness".... If you don't like my witness, again, not my problem. My witness is sure and true. I ensure my every word is based on fact and truth, no "opinion" and negative "fantasy" like most of your all's views are based on, such as your conspiracy theory's of the "books not being open", and thus that somehow means certain things aren't open, monitored, etc. etc., and thus "evils" must be occuring, simply because YOU don't see or know something.

[_jon]

Obiwan said "The Church" itself, it's spiritual institutions have a non-paid ministry.''

Would you class the Apostles as part of the spiritual institution? I think I would.
Do they receive income from the Church? Yep.

[_Obiwan]

Obiwan said "The Church" itself, it's spiritual institutions have a non-paid ministry.''

Would you class the Apostles as part of the spiritual institution? I think I would.
Do they receive income from the Church? Yep.

1. The Apostles are all "self-made" men who did not spend their lives engaged in "filthy-lucre", that is Ministry for pay. They spent their lives making their own careers, and Church service was separate and non-paid and according to calling. Only those who were "called" by OTHERS (not of themselves like other religions) where called to positions that recieve a "living STIPEND". This is well within the scripture standard. It is not at all as other religions in which the money corrupts, and people engage in efforts having to EARN the money.

2. As I mentioned, some in the Church such as the Apostles do in fact recieve a "stipend", this is far different. Again, remember, many of these men left lucrative careers to serve, thus the stipend is completely appropriate. You might also wish to know that those who can afford it do not in fact accept the stipend, which are several. Further, those leaders who do in fact recieve a stipend get it from the "business" side of the Church, NOT out of "Tithing Funds".

A little research for actual truth instead of bearing false witness anti-mormon/liberal Gossip will take you a long way.... :(

As I've said and as the below article verify's, of those who do recieve a living allowance, the money does not come out of "Tithing" funds, i.e. the spiritual side of the Church, but instead the business side. It is perfectly reasonable for those who must do the work full time for them and their family's to have their needs meet in reasonable comparison to their capabilities and careers.

See more here:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... ng_stipend
http://www.mormonchurch.com/53/does-the ... aid-clergy

Only idiots rely on a "message board" and "gossip" for the TRUTH AND FACTS of things.
Intelligent people find the different perspectives on an issue and then compare to get at the actual truth. A simple internet search would have resulted in the full facts.

Although most teaching and leadership positions in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are unpaid, a handful do come with a living allowance.

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints (LDS or Mormon) pride themselves on having no paid clergy in their religion. While all local and regional positions in the LDS church are filled by lay member volunteers, LDS leaders at the worldwide leadership level do in fact receive an LDS living stipend.

Because the full-time work of an LDS general authority leaves no room for outside full-time employment, about 350 mission presidents and 100 general authorities (the prophet, apostles, and first quorum of the seventy) are offered a living allowance. It may be refused by those who are independently wealthy and do not need living assistance.

LDS General Authority Stipends
Mormon leader living allowances come from the profits of commercial holdings owned by the LDS church, not from tithing money paid by church members. In other words, church officials get their living allowances from the profits of the corporations they own as heads of the church - not from the church proper.

The dollar value of LDS general authority stipends is undisclosed, but former church president Gordon B. Hinckley told members that the stipends are "very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions."

Since many general authorities led lucrative careers in medicine, law, and business before leaving them for full-time church service, it is unlikely that a "modest" stipend would exceed their previous incomes.

Stipend vs. Salary
The difference between a "stipend" and a "salary" is largely semantic, but Latter-day Saints prefer the term "stipend" or "living allowance" when applied to their general authorities.

"Living allowance" suggests a reasonable sum that is based on the cost of living. It is more about recognizing that the position leaves no time to seek outside employment to provide for one's needs than it is about payment for services rendered.

Paying Tithing in the LDS (Mormon) Church
Current Mormon Prophet
What is the Mormon Priesthood?

"Salary" suggests a typical wage system where one applies for a position, is hired, and becomes an employee of the organization. Mormons object to the term "salary" because of this connotation. General authorities do not seek their leadership positions, nor have they depended on the church for income prior to their appointments as general authorities (usually not until age 50 or beyond.) For more about how Mormon leaders are called, see LDS Callings.

LDS Scripture and Living Allowances
The Doctrine & Covenants (D&C,) a book of modern LDS scripture believed to contain revelations from God on church doctrine and procedure, sets a precedent for some leaders being supported by the church when they serve full-time.

D&C 75: 24 calls it "the duty of the church to assist in supporting those, and also to support the families of those who are called" to full-time service. D&C 42: 71 says that full-time church servants (at that time, bishops and their assistants) "are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop."

Priestcraft in Mormon Scripture
In most Mormon minds, preaching for money may be closely related to something called "priestcraft." "Priestcraft" is a term from LDS scripture describing those who "preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion" (2 Nephi 26: 29, emphasis added.)

However, both Mormons and non-Mormons should note that this verse is not a blanket condemnation of paid ministers. Priestcraft is not in the receiving of support itself, but in the individual's intent. Practitioners of priestcraft preach for fame and money instead of humankind's welfare. There are many salaried clergy members of all faiths who do not practice priestcraft.

Approximately 450 Mormon leaders out of the hundreds of thousands who serve in the 13 million member Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are eligible for living stipends. Latter-day Saints see these stipends as a living allowance, while critics sometimes see them as evidence of a paid clergy.

Source:

Gordon B. Hinckley, "Questions and Answers." Ensign, November 1985.


Read more at Suite101: LDS General Authorities and Living Allowances | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/lds-gen ... z1N9K0klF7

[_jon]

And the full facts would appear to be that it is dishonest to say 'The Church has a non paid ministry' when in fact, as you yourself have pointed out and referenced, the GA's do receive a 'stipend' out of the finances of the Church.

sti·pend   /ˈstaɪpɛnd/ –noun
1. a periodic payment, especially a scholarship or fellowship allowance granted to a student.
2. fixed or regular pay; salary.

I think you will find that they also receive company cars, travel expenses, living allowances or Church owned residences.

When you say GA's do not receive monies from tithing but from the Commercial Enterprises of the Church - where did the funds to set up/acquire those Commercial Enterprises come from?

I think if it came from the proceeds of investing tithing funds then to claim 'no tithing funds were used' is a wee bit disengenuous...

[_harmony]

Obiwan said "The Church" itself, it's spiritual institutions have a non-paid ministry.''

Would you class the Apostles as part of the spiritual institution? I think I would.
Do they receive income from the Church? Yep.

1. The Apostles are all "self-made" men who did not spend their lives engaged in "filthy-lucre", that is Ministry for pay. They spent their lives making their own careers, and Church service was separate and non-paid and according to calling. Only those who were "called" by OTHERS (not of themselves like other religions) where called to positions that recieve a "living STIPEND". This is well within the scripture standard. It is not at all as other religions in which the money corrupts, and people engage in efforts having to EARN the money.

Packer and his million dollar estate. I'm curious how you get around Packer.

2. As I mentioned, some in the Church such as the Apostles do in fact recieve a "stipend", this is far different. Again, remember, many of these men left lucrative careers to serve, thus the stipend is completely appropriate. You might also wish to know that those who can afford it do not in fact accept the stipend, which are several. Further, those leaders who do in fact recieve a stipend get it from the "business" side of the Church, NOT out of "Tithing Funds".

Every church business was purchased with tithing funds.

Furthermore, you don't know this... the books are closed.

A little research for actual truth instead of bearing false witness anti-mormon/liberal Gossip will take you a long way.... :(

A little common sense on your part would not come amiss.

[_Joseph]

"The Church" itself, it's spiritual institutions have a non-paid ministry.

The top dogs are paid. Where it comes from does not matter. The fact they are paid makes these statements of 'non-paid' ministry a lie.
**********************************

from Mormon.org website on how ld-sinc gets its money.

How does the Church finance its operations?

Gordon B. Hinckley, prior President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said: “Our major source of revenue is the ancient law of the tithe. Our people are expected to pay 10 percent of their income to move forward the work of the Church. The remarkable and wonderful thing is that they do it. Tithing is not so much a matter of dollars as it is a matter of faith. It becomes a privilege and an opportunity, not a burden. Our people believe in the word of God as set forth in the book of Malachi, that the Lord will open the windows of heaven and pour down blessings that there will not be room enough to receive them (Malachi 3:8-10). Moving and touching is the testimony of Latter-day Saints throughout the world concerning this, the Lord’s law for the financing of His work.”

*************************************

from Mormon.org on what nice guys they are in helping others.

Do Mormons only help Mormons?




Much of what is done in the Church is to bless and help those who are not Mormon. The Mormon Church has donated more than $1 billion in cash and material assistance to 167 different countries in need of humanitarian aid since it started keeping track in 1985. Many of these countries have few to no Mormons, but are also non-Christian. More than 53,000 Mormon missionaries serve through the world today. All of their service is to help those who are not Mormon. Joseph Smith himself taught that we are "to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all."

[_SteelHead]

Obi,
Examine the life of Bruce R McConkie and demonstrate where he had the means to support himself and his family through his tenure as a GA and later apostle. He did not. Instead while still an author and previous to him becoming a GA, he received a stipend from the church, continuing until his death.

[_Obiwan]

And the full facts would appear to be that it is dishonest to say 'The Church has a non paid ministry' when in fact, as you yourself have pointed out and referenced, the GA's do receive a 'stipend' out of the finances of the Church.

sti·pend   /ˈstaɪpɛnd/ –noun
1. a periodic payment, especially a scholarship or fellowship allowance granted to a student.
2. fixed or regular pay; salary.

Not being as specific in the "first" instance of my comment on the subject that I could have been, is not the same as being "dishonest". I simply neglected in that moment to be more specific. It has a non-compensated lay ministry, which is essentially the entire Church, and only those in certain full-time capacities recieve a living allowance. If you read the articles you would know that those who do recieve a stipend is at an extremely low and negligable number.

I think you will find that they also receive company cars, travel expenses, living allowances or Church owned residences.

Again, out of it's business holdings.

When you say GA's do not receive monies from tithing but from the Commercial Enterprises of the Church - where did the funds to set up/acquire those Commercial Enterprises come from?

I think if it came from the proceeds of investing tithing funds then to claim 'no tithing funds were used' is a wee bit disengenuous...

First, not at all.... Even if it did in fact occur some 180 years ago doesn't amount to being disengenous. Further, even that didn't happen. People have been donating their fortunes, businesses, etc. to the Church from the very beginning, thus from the very beginning there was always a separation between tithing and the Churches business interests.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

[_Obiwan]

Packer and his million dollar estate. I'm curious how you get around Packer.

And do you really think a million dollar estate is somehow out of form for someone of Packers capabilities, work ethic, etc.?
How do you know some generous member of the Church didn't donate it to him?
I have nothing wrong with it. When it comes to real estate, which is something I have some experience in, a million dollar worth of property isn't all that much for anyone of reasonable success.

Do you fault everyone out there with the same? Well, who am I talking to, likely a liberal who has no problem with hypocracy and judgmentalism of those of morality and conservative business skills.

Every church business was purchased with tithing funds.

Furthermore, you don't know this... the books are closed.

I do know this.... Church businesses were not purchases with "Tithing" Funds....
You are clearly ignorant of the fact that the Church has all kinds of "accounts" that are separate from one another, and used for different purposes. Tithing funds are specifically and only used for certain things with the Church, and you see it all around you, since you claim to be a member.
Again, you repeat the same lie. Church owned businesses are "for profit" enterprises, that means the books ARE open, per applicaple law and circumstances.

A little common sense on your part would not come amiss.

I judge by facts AND common sense.... You judge on your negative ignorant fantasy's, as if such is the same as common sense.

[_harmony]

Packer and his million dollar estate. I'm curious how you get around Packer.

And do you really think a million dollar estate is somehow out of form for someone of Packers capabilities, work ethic, etc.?

He only acquired the property AFTER he became a GA.

How do you know some generous member of the Church didn't donate it to him?

In a sense, we all did. We just didn't know it.

I have nothing wrong with it.

Of course you don't, Criticizing your leaders is not within your scope.

When it comes to real estate, which is something I have some experience in, a million dollar worth of property isn't all that much for anyone of reasonable success.

Of course not, since he hasn't worked a day in his life outside the church for over 50 years.

Do you fault everyone out there with the same?

I'm equally critical of anyone who makes claims about honesty, and then is dishonest about their lifestyle.

Well, who am I talking to, likely a liberal who has no problem with hypocrisy and judgmentalism of those of morality and conservative business skills.

Registered Republican here.

I do know this.... Church businesses were not purchases with "Tithing" Funds....

Show me the money, Obiwan. You can't, because the books are closed.

You are clearly ignorant of the fact that the Church has all kinds of "accounts" that are separate from one another, and used for different purposes. Tithing funds are specifically and only used for certain things with the Church, and you see it all around you, since you claim to be a member.

Every church owned business started out being bought with tithing money, because that's the only revenue stream they had back in the day.

Again, you repeat the same lie. Church owned businesses are "for profit" enterprises, that means the books ARE open, per applicaple law and circumstances.

Then show us the books for the City Creek Mall. Show us the bid process. Show us the contractors.

And then you can explain why the church isn't guilty of priestcraft, for preaching for pay.