A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Tchild
_Emeritus
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:44 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _Tchild »

malaise wrote:mother does. It's sort of mind blowing to think about how messed up that is. The priesthood ban is one of the more disturbing things about Mormonism; the LDS church is by its very nature a sexist organization. Did anyone else get the "Licked Cupcake" lesson?

"Authority" to do what? To perform rituals that correspond to a mythical make-believe world?

It is like a third-grader being the president of a super secret tree-house club. Those other third-graders who aren't thus designated with such "authority" ain't missing much, much less the grown adults living in reality land who have moved beyond the need of 3rd grade play acting.
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _Morley »

Tchild wrote:"Authority" to do what? To perform rituals that correspond to a mythical make-believe world?

It is like a third-grader being the president of a super secret tree-house club. Those other third-graders who aren't thus designated with such "authority" ain't missing much, much less the grown adults living in reality land who have moved beyond the need of 3rd grade play acting.


Not so.

What if these third-graders were excluding girls and black children? Then would you object to their games?

What if "the grown adults living in [so-called] reality land" were playing the very same game? Might it have some detrimental effect on women and the excluded minorities?

Whether or not the game is real, it affects others in very real ways.


edited spelling
_MsJack
_Emeritus
Posts: 4375
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:06 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _MsJack »

I'm not sure it's correct to say that a 12 year-old boy has more authority in the LDS church than his mother. What type of authority? The authority to do what?

What things does a deacon have the authority to do that his mother does not? Pass the sacrament and collect fast offerings. Am I missing anything?

But he probably does not have the authority to do other things that his mother might have the authority to do, like preside over and conduct a Relief Society meeting.

All authority in the LDS church is delegated by someone else, from the authority that the apostles have to speak in General Conference to the authority that a woman has to perform washings and anointings on other women in the temple to the authority that the deacon has to pass the Sacrament to the authority that the non-member who's visiting the ward has to also pass the Sacrament on to the next person in the pew. It's all delegated authority, and Mormons would say that it comes from God to the prophet and goes from there.

There are areas where the church has designated that the mother is most definitively in authority over her son. The church has been pretty specific that the husband is ideally meant to "preside" in the home, not the wife (though Mormons seem to be in the midst of an identity crisis as to what the hell "preside" even means). But what happens in the case of single mother households or a household where the husband is otherwise unable or unworthy of presiding?

In those cases, the church has designated that it's the mother who presides, not her minor sons. The authority goes from husband to wife, not husband to son. Dallin Oaks grew up in a single-mother household and has talked about this on several occasions.

For me, the problem is not that a 12 year-old boy has authority and responsibilities that his mother does not have. One can make the case that they have authority and responsibilities in different things, that their roles are "separate but equal."

The problem is that the 12 year-old boy is only going to grow in sacerdotal authority and responsibilities, and the mother will not. For every type of "authority" in the church that a woman is given, for every task that she may perform, men have a comparable equivalent. This is not the case with women in the church, where we can create a long list of male-only roles for which there are no female equivalents. This is why you see so many people desperately reaching for pregnancy, lactation, childbirth and motherhood as some kind of equivalent.

The boy will eventually be able to perform baptisms, give blessings, preside over Elders Quorums, and serve in any number of callings for which there are no female equivalents. The mother will always just have the limited roles that she has. That is the problem.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

My Blogs: Weighted Glory | Worlds Without End: A Mormon Studies Roundtable | Twitter
_Falcon A
_Emeritus
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:59 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _Falcon A »

I recall when I was not quite 12, being told that soon I would have more power in my little finger than the King of England. Really had no idea what that meant, but I learned right away that moving mountains and making rain were out of the question.

...and as a side-note. My mother was the 1st woman in the ward to pray at sacrament meeting. (Dad in the bishopric and all.)
It was a big deal at the house that week.
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _ludwigm »

malaise wrote:... the LDS church is by its very nature a sexist organization...


This is a monstrous lie.

The LDS church is a prime example of the gender equality
.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.
...compared to this group:

Hillary Clinton, Audrey Tomason go missing in Situation Room photo in Di Tzeitung (hasidic) newspaper.

Image

Image

Full statement by Di Tzeitung:
The White House released a picture showing the President following “live” the events in the apprehension of Osama Bin Laden, last week Sunday. Also present in the Situation Room were various high-ranking government and military officials. Our photo editor realized the significance of this historic moment, and published the picture, but in his haste he did not read the "fine print" that accompanied the picture, forbidding any changes. We should not have published the altered picture, and we have conveyed our regrets and apologies to the White House and to the State Department.

The allegations that religious Jews denigrate women or do not respect women in public office, is a malicious slander and libel. The current Secretary of State, the Honorable Hillary R. Clinton, was a Senator representing New York State with great distinction 8 years. She won overwhelming majorities in the Orthodox Jewish communities in her initial campaign in '00, and when she was re-elected in '06, because the religious community appreciated her unique capabilities and compassion to all communities. The Jewish religion does not allow for discrimination based on gender, race, etc.

We respect all government officials. We even have special prayers for the welfare of our Government and the government leaders, and there is no mention of gender in such prayers.

All Government employees are sworn into office, promising adherence to the Constitution, and our Constitution attests to our greatness as a nation that is a light beacon to the entire world. The First Amendment to the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. (See below.) That has precedence even to our cherished freedom of the press! In accord with our religious beliefs, we do not publish photos of women, which in no way relegates them to a lower status. Publishing a newspaper is a big responsibility, and our policies are guided by a Rabbinical Board. Because of laws of modesty, we are not allowed to publish pictures of women, and we regret if this gives an impression of disparaging to women, which is certainly never our intention. We apologize if this was seen as offensive.

We are proud Americans of the Jewish faith, and there is no conflict in that, and we will with the help of the Almighty continue as law-abiding citizens, in this great country of our's, until the ultimate redemption.


"The allegations that religious Jews denigrate women or do not respect women in public office, is a malicious slander and libel."
That damned antijews know nothing and are distorting everything. :smilie

"In accord with our religious beliefs, we do not publish photos of women, which in no way relegates them to a lower status."
One should tell them that we live in the 21. century...

"our policies are guided by a Rabbinical Board"
Their Correlation Committee.

.

.

by the way
"our Constitution attests to our greatness as a nation that is a light beacon to the entire world"
I like humble people.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _Chap »

That excuse from Di Tzeitung might have washed (at least within their own bizarre religious terms) if they had simply left angular black patches where the women were, instead of doing what they did do, which was to photo-shop them out and fill in the missing bits of shirt-sleeve etc, so that it seemed as if the US Secretary of State was not present on an important occasion when she was in fact present and doing her job.

That gives the game away. It is not just that they feared that a picture of HC might have been disrespectful - elderly bearded men might have stared at her with bad thoughts, perhaps? - but rather that they did not want to publish a picture that showed a woman filling a vital governmental office.

That's the key. And that is why it is OK to say, I suspect, with the great majority of America's Jews that Di Tzeitung is simply a bunch of religious nuts whose views in this matter are not worthy of respect.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_ludwigm
_Emeritus
Posts: 10158
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _ludwigm »

Chap wrote: ...Di Tzeitung is simply a bunch of religious nuts ...

... Di Tzeitung is simply another bunch of religious nuts ...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _Hoops »

Nuts are measured in ounces, not bunches.
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _consiglieri »

just me wrote:Hell, a woman can't even give a prayer in General Conference.


And only recently could she give a prayer in sacrament meeting . . .
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_DarkHelmet
_Emeritus
Posts: 5422
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:38 pm

Re: A 12 year old boy has more authority in the church than his

Post by _DarkHelmet »

Hoops wrote:Nuts are measured in ounces, not bunches.


Mine are measured in pounds.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
Post Reply