If the church is not true, would you want to know?

[_Buffalo]

The price you paid was much, much higher than most.

It seems God is not very consistent. I think though it is really about our bodies ability to produce spiritual experiences. Some people, religious or not, tend to do it fairly easy while others can't seem to get very good ones at all no matter how hard they try.

I think so too. I think my body was better able to generate what I used to call "the spirit" when I was in my late teens/early 20s. Also the period of my life when I was most emotionally volatile. Some people just don't have the "spirit gene" or gland or whatever it is that makes people feel tingly or hot or blissful in response to certain stimuli (external or internal).

Someone posted this before - I think the "spirit" works in similar fashion:

http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010 ... ersonality

'Messiah' give you chills? That's a clue to your personality

Matt Cardy / Getty Images

These members of the Salisbury (England) Cathedral Choir, shown practicing for Christmas Eve services, have likely caused some chills.

Some of us get the chills when hearing Handel’s exultant “Messiah” this time of year. For others, it’s the simple, yet joyful opening strains of Vince Guaraldi’s music at the start of “A Charlie Brown Christmas.” Or it might be Bing Crosby’s poignant “I’ll Be Home for Christmas” that triggers goose bumps. (Or for the sillier of us, his whimsical “Mele Kalikimaka” might just do it.)

Well, it turns out that getting chills upon hearing music is an actual thing, you know, like scientists study. And a new report in the journal Social Psychology and Personality Science says that who gets music-induced chills and who doesn’t might depend on personality.

Musical chills, write the authors, from the University of North Carolina, are “sometimes known as aesthetic chills, thrills, shivers, frisson, and even skin orgasms [who knew?] … and involve a seconds-long feeling of goose bumps, tingling, and shivers, usually on the scalp, the back of the neck, and the spine, but occasionally across most of the body.”

The scientific explanation for chills is that the emotions evoked by beautiful or meaningful music stimulate the part of the brain called the hypothalamus, which controls primal drives such as hunger, sex and rage and also involuntary responses like blushing and goosebumps. When the song soars, your body can't help but shiver.

Some people report lots of skin orgasms and some people say they never get them, but the personality trait “openness to experience” seems like a good predictor. (By "open to experience" the researchers seem to mean those people who enjoy art, good movies, aesthetic stuff.)

That’s what the North Carolina researchers wanted to test. So they took 196 people and assessed their music preferences; how often they experienced chills, goose bumps, hair standing on end and the like; their engagement with music (such as whether they played an instrument); and their personality types. The only personality trait with a significant impact on music-induced chills was indeed “openness.”

Genre, the style of music people listened to, didn’t seem to matter, though a deeper engagement with music in general did. So “Messiah,” Irving Berlin’s “White Christmas,” and your child’s rendition of “Oh Christmas Tree” might all give chills (though your kid’s singing might just be scary) if you’re the open type.

In 2007, scientists from the University of California San Diego studied whether or not getting chills from music enhanced altruism by measuring whether or not those who got them were more willing to donate blood. It turned out that the skin orgasm getters may be open, but chills didn’t make them any more giving, which might mean those guys ringing those damn bells ought to give it a rest already. Since music doesn't make us any more generous why not play something good? Try some Vince Guaraldi instead.

[_mentalgymnast]

The LDS Church and its members are as a bad as anyone else (some would say worse than anyone else), about claiming those who don't believe haven't "paid the price."

Forty years ago, having doubts and trying to strengthen my testimony, I read the Book of Mormon, fasted and prayed. It didn't work. So I went to see the stake president, a man I knew and liked. Gradually, in desperation, I upped my fasting to one 36-hour fast each week and one five-day fast a year. I did this for five years. I prayed continuously, read the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, Talmage's Jesus the Christ, the Doctrines of Salvation (you know the drill). I paid tithing, was a counselor in the elder's quorum, taught gospel doctrine classes in Sunday School, went to the temple. I threw out my rock and roll LPs (I still wake up in a sweat about this). I tried attending church in Joseph Fielding Smith's home ward. I took the full missionary discussions--as an active member. I gave the process the next ten full years of my life. Still my testimony waned rather then waxed. Why did I not get a testimony? I was told that I must be lying about something, that I must have some secret sin, that there must be something wrong with my character.

I still get told by my TBM friends and family that somehow, I have not been willing to "pay the price" necessary for the witness of God and the Holy Ghost. Or that there is something wrong with my character. Or that I want too much from the Church. Or that I just plain think too much.

C'est la vie.

You're not the first one to post this type of narrative. It could be true. It may not be. We don't know for sure one way or the other.

That's the problem with message boards.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

The price you paid was much, much higher than most.

I think though it is really about our bodies ability to produce spiritual experiences. Some people, religious or not, tend to do it fairly easy while others can't seem to get very good ones at all no matter how hard they try.

No doubt there is a physiological likelihood that some people are more prone to emotional response than others. But that doesn't say anything about a spiritual experience.

At least in my experience.

Regards,
MG

[Guest]

The LDS Church and its members are as a bad as anyone else (some would say worse than anyone else), about claiming those who don't believe haven't "paid the price."

Forty years ago, having doubts and trying to strengthen my testimony, I read the Book of Mormon, fasted and prayed. It didn't work. So I went to see the stake president, a man I knew and liked. Gradually, in desperation, I upped my fasting to one 36-hour fast each week and one five-day fast a year. I did this for five years. I prayed continuously, read the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, Talmage's Jesus the Christ, the Doctrines of Salvation (you know the drill). I paid tithing, was a counselor in the elder's quorum, taught gospel doctrine classes in Sunday School, went to the temple. I threw out my rock and roll LPs (I still wake up in a sweat about this). I tried attending church in Joseph Fielding Smith's home ward. I took the full missionary discussions--as an active member. I gave the process the next ten full years of my life. Still my testimony waned rather then waxed. Why did I not get a testimony? I was told that I must be lying about something, that I must have some secret sin, that there must be something wrong with my character.

I still get told by my TBM friends and family that somehow, I have not been willing to "pay the price" necessary for the witness of God and the Holy Ghost. Or that there is something wrong with my character. Or that I want too much from the Church. Or that I just plain think too much.

C'est la vie.

You're not the first one to post this type of narrative. It could be true. It may not be. We don't know for sure one way or the other.

That's the problem with message boards.

Regards,
MG

Ha! Okay then, I'll put you down for "thinks he's lying," as opposed to "thinks he sinned" or "thinks he was offended." I can assure you, though, that it's all true, and fairly common, as are the stories of others who "post this type of narrative."

One question, MG, do you disbelieve them all? And if so, why? And why are we all lying?

edited to add: Whoops, make that three questions.

[_Themis]

No doubt there is a physiological likelihood that some people are more prone to emotional response than others. But that doesn't say anything about a spiritual experience.

At least in my experience.

Regards,
MG

Not just simple emotion's, but a slew of other expereinces created by the mind and body. Most usually consider them important whether they use the term spiritual or not. I use it because that is what I grew up with in the LDS religion.

[_moksha]

While you continue to claim what's good in your opinion, you also evade a strong stance in what you believe to be true. Do you believe that Mormonism is true?

I wish to plead the Huntsman defense.

Ha! Moksha, you are evading the question. Answer up!

Today the Church is beyond that make it up as you go along era. Now we are more into discussing principles and how they apply in our daily lives. Simply put the Church does a lot of good for a lot of people and teaches their members how to live moral lives. It helps bring people to a united purpose in trying to do Christ-like deeds and help one another with a community spirit. Those of you who dwell in blacks and whites, have felt betrayed when the blacks and white turned out not to be the shades they have claimed, yet instead of accepting what actual shades they are, you stay with being appalled that things are not black and white as expected.

The Church as it exists today is much more than its foundational claims. It exists all over the world and furnishes spiritual solace for those in need, as well as being a guideline for life. These good things nourish me and are sufficient for my allegiance. I have a strong belief in the message of Jesus and I find the LDS Church helps me in that regard as well. I would not go up to the podium and proclaim that an institution is true. Instead, I would state my belief in the higher ideals which we commonly embrace.

[_Morley]

Ha! Moksha, you are evading the question. Answer up!

Today the Church is beyond that make it up as you go along era. Now we are more into discussing principles and how they apply in our daily lives. Simply put the Church does a lot of good for a lot of people and teaches their members how to live moral lives. It helps bring people to a united purpose in trying to do Christ-like deeds and help one another with a community spirit. Those of you who dwell in blacks and whites, have felt betrayed when the blacks and white turned out not to be the shades they have claimed, yet instead of accepting what actual shades they are, you stay with being appalled that things are not black and white as expected.

The Church as it exists today is much more than its foundational claims. It exists all over the world and furnishes spiritual solace for those in need, as well as being a guideline for life. These good things nourish me and are sufficient for my allegiance. I have a strong belief in the message of Jesus and I find the LDS Church helps me in that regard as well. I would not go up to the podium and proclaim that an institution is true. Instead, I would state my belief in the higher ideals which we commonly embrace.

I share little with you in terms of what we each believe. That aside, I think this was well said, Little Penguin.

[_mentalgymnast]

Ha! Okay then, I'll put you down for "thinks he's lying," as opposed to "thinks he sinned" or "thinks he was offended." I can assure you, though, that it's all true, and fairly common, as are the stories of others who "post this type of narrative."

One question, MG, do you disbelieve them all? And if so, why? And why are we all lying?

Well, I've listened to a number of people over the years who claim to believe in the narrative of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, on this message board and on other boards. In all truthfulness, I disbelieve them all. Why? It just seems too far fetched. Now, why would all the FSM enthusiasts lie? I really don't know. I am doubtful that their purposes for dealing in fabrications or half truths can be fully understood. But I'm sure they have their reasons.

So, I can't say why there would be those that would also make similar claims to those that you did in your narrative. Your claims and those of others with similar narratives seem to be a bit "over the top" and possibly exaggerated. These common narratives like yours are seen online periodically and seem a bit too far fetched and extreme to believe wholeheartedly. Personally, I see a "following the herd" mentality and/or group think at play. But who knows for sure? It's a message board and anything goes.

I can't say for sure why a select group of people would lie and/or exaggerate their experience in looking at the truth claims of the LDS church and then claim total failure after heroic attempts to ascertain the truth. The problem is, just as with the flying spaghetti monster, it's improbable that the full truth is all we're hearing from this select group expressing a similar story. But who knows for sure? That's why I say that it's difficult in a message board venue to ascertain whether or not people are actually telling the whole truth or if they're supporting each other in a common narrative for purposes/ends that may not be fully understood or clear.

You may be telling the truth. You may not be.

Regards,
MG

[_Morley]

Ha! Okay then, I'll put you down for "thinks he's lying," as opposed to "thinks he sinned" or "thinks he was offended." I can assure you, though, that it's all true, and fairly common, as are the stories of others who "post this type of narrative."

One question, MG, do you disbelieve them all? And if so, why? And why are we all lying?

Well, I've listened to a number of people over the years who claim to believe in the narrative of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, on this message board and on other boards. In all truthfulness, I disbelieve them all. Why? It just seems too far fetched. Now, why would all the FSM enthusiasts lie? I really don't know. I am doubtful that their purposes for dealing in fabrications or half truths can be fully understood. But I'm sure they have their reasons.

So, I can't say why there would be those that would also make similar claims to those that you did in your narrative. Your claims and those of others with similar narratives seem to be a bit "over the top" and possibly exaggerated. These common narratives like yours are seen online periodically and seem a bit too far fetched and extreme to believe wholeheartedly. Personally, I see a "following the herd" mentality and/or group think at play. But who knows for sure? It's a message board and anything goes.

I can't say for sure why a select group of people would lie and/or exaggerate their experience in looking at the truth claims of the LDS church and then claim total failure after heroic attempts to ascertain the truth. The problem is, just as with the flying spaghetti monster, it's improbable that the full truth is all we're hearing from this select group expressing a similar story. But who knows for sure? That's why I say that it's difficult in a message board venue to ascertain whether or not people are actually telling the whole truth or if they're supporting each other in a common narrative for purposes/ends that may not be fully understood or clear.

You may be telling the truth. You may not be.

Regards,
MG

I know why you'd find the Flying Spaghetti Monster improbable. You didn't explain why you find apostate stories (or my story in particular) to be improbable. Is it that you don't believe that anyone would try that hard to get a testimony? I doubt if I gave it more effort than you'd put into it. The church meant as much to me as it does to you.

Please elaborate.

[_ludwigm]

"If the church is not true, would you want to know?"

The church is not true.
I know it.

Step forward. Any other question?