Jack Welch: A "dark, menacing presence"?

[_Simon Belmont]

Simon, I have to admit sometimes you truly perplex me. What "Other Restoration Scripture" do other parts of the "Lattter-day Saint Movement" have that the LDS Church does not?

The RLDS/CoC owns the copyright on the Joseph Smith Translation, for example.

Might it be the "Other Restoration Scripture" would be that compiled as the PoGP and the D&C? It seems odd that you would interpret it to mean Restoration Scripture that segments of the Movement other than the LDS Church have but the LDS Church does not.

It does include the PoGP and D&C, but I think it also probably includes things like the JST (part of the LDS Movement, but not owned by the LDS Church).

[_Simon Belmont]

simone, is it true you hit this topic because you thought it was about Lamanites?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18526

[_Joseph]

Ah yes, sminon, such a great Priesthood Holder in action. Bet your mommy is proud.

[_Doctor Scratch]

When the folks who dwell at MDB hear only one side of the story -- a side which they've already decided is the the correct side -- it is easy to use virtually any scenario to attack or mock the church.

This is a case in point: what we have is hearsay, one guy's side of the story. And notice the emotionally charged words he uses: The term éminence grise paints a picture of a secret, but powerful conspirator. It was, after all, Friar François Leclerc du Tremblay who is said to have held great influence over the cardinal. In other words, the real power behind the throne.

But is this the truth, or just a sensationalization from an angry LDS critic who was denied access to documents he intended to use to attack the very organization he was seeking help from?

Attack? Bagley wanted access so as to write the best and most thorough history. There were plenty of TBM historians that were willing to help him, too.

So why was Welch even there? Well, you are not entirely correct that he is not a historian. He holds a B.A. in History and an M.A. in Latin and Greek. Those topics tend to be very much focused on history, especially history it self, wouldn't you agree? As founder of FARMS and member of the board of trustees for The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, he is an expert on the Latter-day Saint Movement and it makes perfect sense to have him there -- I'd definitely want him there.

Even if it "makes sense" to have Welch present, it doesn't make sense that he would be presiding over the meeting in the way he did. The over-the-top deference paid to him is even more bizarre. Not only is he there in the room, but he seems to be wielding a massive amount of power. Plus you've got all the unjustifiable secrecy, the refusal to share details of what the Chuch's historians are working on, etc., and this secrecy seems to have its focus in the FARMS founder himself.

In any case, we will never hear Jack Welch's side of the story, all we have is Bagley's.

It's in Welch's interest to keep mum about all of this. Truth and openness will never benefit the Mopologists. I think that it would benefit the Church overall in the long run, but that's not how the apologists and the Brethren feel about things.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Curious Simon that you use the broadened 'movement' here rather than your beloved, specific LDS Church, which is the only part of the 'movement' that had a hand in MMM. Are you trying to cast the MMM stain from just the LDS Church onto all Mormon churches? Please explain.

No. I am not. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has taken full responsibility for MMM.

Uh, not so much:

That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day.

http://1857massacre.com/MMM/dilemma_of_blame.htm

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

It's amazing to me the endless misinformation Mohadists float not understanding there's this thing called Goooooooogle.

Goooooooogle.

Can't lie and get away with it any more, fellas.

V/R
Dr. Cameron

Post Script-

[_Nightlion]

Uh, not so much:

That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day.

Looks like we may have found the High Lord of LDS Druidry. With Hinckley's absurdity of building a monument and leaving it open to interpretation and the entire fiasco of FARMS it becomes apparent that the intent of these priesthood betrayers is to finesse the Church from its roots to a wholly secular/apostate order. They want to keep the history damning to force the LDS mindset into deeper denial. It is a Satanic mind trick, to ease the entire church into an absolute construct devoid of faith and the power of godliness in preference of overall church image and worldliness.

Hell, if they had wanted an apologetic for many of the embarrassing doctrines that had never been figured out competently with scriptural rationale that covered it all they would have made ME their champion in the early eighties. The cabal of Hinckleyites did not want answers they wanted confusion for the purpose of finessing the Church into a more perfect and excellent Beast.

"Oh, I don't know that we teach that." GBH on Larry King Live

Most illuminating.

Step One was way back in the 1850s when Jedidiah Grant ran rough shod over the entire Church preaching up sustaining your file leader as the evident token of righteousness. (Rather than for the earnest of salvation the unction from on high, the gift and power of the Holy Ghost)

Everyone understood that IF they wanted power with the saints they had to toe THIS mindset and approve themselves super-sustainers where all thinking is trickle-down.

Step Two Was Lorenzo Snow making the payment of tithing the second leg of faithfulness, where every man understood that the doors are only open to super-sustainer who pay a full tithing. (Rather than for the earnest of salvation the unction from on high, the gift and power of the Holy Ghost)

Having command over the blind allegiance and wealth of the people they only needed to defeat hope to sever all ties to the expectation of the purposes of God and have complete control that could never be challenged.

Step Three The non-defense that betrays the Restoration but keeps the Church as a creation of their own making forcing the people to move along as directed and utterly dissolve all hope of Zion. You will be trusted and rise up in the ranks ONLY if your mind is acceptably numb. (Rather than for the earnest of salvation the unction from on high, the gift and power of the Holy Ghost)

Small wonder that the Lord has forsaken them and left them to themselves. The day of the Gentile is done. So let it be written. So let them be numb.

[_Blixa]

Step One was way back in the 1850s when Jedidiah Grant ran rough shod over the entire Church preaching up sustaining your file leader as the evident token of righteousness. (Rather than for the earnest of salvation the unction from on high, the gift and power of the Holy Ghost)

Everyone understood that IF they wanted power with the saints they had to toe THIS mindset and approve themselves super-sustainers where all thinking is trickle-down.

No kidding. You know your history.

[_Morley]

Simon, I have to admit sometimes you truly perplex me. What "Other Restoration Scripture" do other parts of the "Lattter-day Saint Movement" have that the LDS Church does not?

The RLDS/CoC owns the copyright on the Joseph Smith Translation, for example.

Might it be the "Other Restoration Scripture" would be that compiled as the PoGP and the D&C? It seems odd that you would interpret it to mean Restoration Scripture that segments of the Movement other than the LDS Church have but the LDS Church does not.

It does include the PoGP and D&C, but I think it also probably includes things like the JST (part of the LDS Movement, but not owned by the LDS Church).

Simon, I believe said documents are all in the public domain, by now. Which would make it so that your explanation doesn't hold water.

[_Gadianton]

The "big fish"? This indeed is an alarming description of a senior executive of the Mopologetic movement. The hair on the back of my neck stood up as I read this description. Like Jonah, Bagly was swallowed up ina campaign to silence legitimate scholarship.

I think it's probably true that the apologists weild a certain degree of power over the brethren. I've discussed this before when musing on City Creek. The brethren have really screwed up in sense, by detatching themselves from doctrine and scholarship and fully embracing business, law, and PR as their core expertise.

While its a conventional business practice to bring in consultants, its best to have in-house expertise on core areas of buiness where decision making can have costly consequences. Farming out the well-understood, mundane aspects of operations is where outsourcing brings benefit.

Consultants dream about the potential client out of his depth. The hourly rates soar, and no matter how fat the client is, he can be yanked around like a fool. Here is this critical issue, it has huge implications to the Church's core business, and over the years, at GBH's guidence, the church has shed all its expertise on religion. So now these huge issues pop up, and they have to pick up the phone and call around to find someone qualified to get them out of the mess. The contractors they hire will naturally command a power over them, no matter how powerful the Church otherise is.