Q

[_madeleine]

My friend MCB has been going down the rabbit hole of Mormon lore, and the Book of Mormon origins for a long time now. Really, she has some interesting insights and ideas.

The Book of Mormon, as believed by Mormons, is very odd to a Christian. "Translated" by God, and Mormons carry this idea to Jewish and Christian scripture.

The Mormon view of scripture is heretical to Catholics, having its root in sola scriptura, and a teaching that God's Final and Perfect Revelation, Jesus Christ, somehow left something out.

Mormons go down many paths that require lengthy and complicated conspiracy theories, when the truth is simple and beautiful.

Peace.

[_harmony]

The Mormon view of scripture is heretical to Catholics, having its root in sola scriptura, and a teaching that God's Final and Perfect Revelation, Jesus Christ, somehow left something out.

God didn't leave it out; men did.

Mormons go down many paths that require lengthy and complicated conspiracy theories, when the truth is simple and beautiful.

Peace.

Simple and beautiful to one person is another person's complex and convoluted.

[_madeleine]

God didn't leave it out; men did.

I haven't seen the evidence for this.

Simple and beautiful to one person is another person's complex and convoluted.

God, through the ages, prophecied and built towards our Salvation. All is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Complicated and conspiracy: Jesus established a Church that could not last more than the lifetime of the Apostles, who, were inept, derelict or maybe just lazy, in the mission given to them by Jesus Christ, who they lived, walked with, and learned from directly. The Spirit received at Pentecost was ineffective. They somehow found this mission unimportant and were indifferent to it. What followed was all in darkness, after all of God's work, it is a failure, and it takes a 14 year old boy to put it back together. Only, this has been claimed to have been done before numerous times, so which "prophet" did God work through? Mohammed, Joseph or maybe Ellen White?

Simple and Beautiful: What God established He maintains, through the Holy Spirit, given to the Apostles at Pentecost.

Peace.

[_Nightlion]

Simple and Beautiful: What God established He maintains, through the Holy Spirit, given to the Apostles at Pentecost.

Peace.

Problem is those who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost have gone on to their reward. For there to be any Holy Spirit since there would have to be one soul who also had a moment like Pentecost where a rushing wind rustles silken robes from another dimension attending to the promise of the Father and a baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is fulfilled again.

Then that one died.
So you need another or no HS with power is present in the world.
And so on and so on.

Once the world is disarmed of the power of the Holy Ghost or the few are driven out from among pleasant society men rely upon their brightest thinkers to conjure rationales, rituals, and excuses.

Then other thinkers want to make their bones by making sport of the first thinkers and soon you got an academy of colleges handing out degrees to warrant some few as keepers of the public confidence. This is priestcraft either way and like all games of dramatic conflict it sucks people into the entertainment of it all and profits nothing.

After the blood-lust of men demonstrating their skills wresting all attention away from the divine and turned wholly upon themselves with cathedrals of their own honors the reality of the Holy Spirit is denied withal.

You think the remnants and perpetuation of such spiritual slaughter is maintained by God and it is somehow beautiful?

Show me a present day of Pentecost. That will be beautiful indeed.

[_1 Iron]

My friend MCB has been going down the rabbit hole of Mormon lore, and the Book of Mormon origins for a long time now. Really, she has some interesting insights and ideas.

Interesting. I'm sure they'd be valuable to discuss if shared.

The Book of Mormon, as believed by Mormons, is very odd to a Christian. "Translated" by God, and Mormons carry this idea to Jewish and Christian scripture.

The Mormon view of scripture is heretical to Catholics, having its root in sola scriptura, and a teaching that God's Final and Perfect Revelation, Jesus Christ, somehow left something out.

I am not sure that I would say your description is accurate. The LDS church does not teach that Jesus left any of His teaching out. In fact, I think most members would agree that the words of Christ to the Nephites in the America's are likely to have been the same direction he gave to his apostles and other disciples in Jerusalem - 3 Nephi 23:4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.

In fact, the entire point of my thread is that Mormon belief suggests something about the "Q"-source. That is, within Mormon belief it is reasonable to suspect that the words we have in the Bible are not only edited from an original source for some purpose (which, I believe, the quote you shared suggested is accepted by your faith), but that this original source is not only more closely accurate to what Christ said, it's likely to contain more specific doctrine and teachings that for various reasons were left out.

I suggested in my response to A. Smith that D&C Section 7 represents an example of this type of restoration. I suspect that some may misread that to mean I am suggesting the parchment IS the "Q" source given that so much else I have said seems to fail to make it through clearly. But that is not what I meant. Only that Section 7 answer's A. Smith's request to see something biblical that God had restored through Joseph Smith as evidence for my theory.

I think it is best stated that we, as LDS believers, hold to the truths that we have been given with an eye full of hope for that time when all will be made more clear. I'd like to think that most other Christians would share in that hope, even if we view the current state of scripture somewhat differently.

But in the end, I think the simple and beautiful message you speak of is the same in all scripture - the message of Christ risen, mankind redeemed by His grace, and one day to be perfected in His service through love.

If you don't mind, though, could you explain more on how you view sola scriptura? While I have a third-person understanding of the phrase, I'm curious how you view it? This is for my own edification, not for debate.

Peace.

[_madeleine]

Simple and Beautiful: What God established He maintains, through the Holy Spirit, given to the Apostles at Pentecost.

Peace.

Problem is those who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost have gone on to their reward. For there to be any Holy Spirit since there would have to be one soul who also had a moment like Pentecost where a rushing wind rustles silken robes from another dimension attending to the promise of the Father and a baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost is fulfilled again.

Then that one died.
So you need another or no HS with power is present in the world.
And so on and so on.

Once the world is disarmed of the power of the Holy Ghost or the few are driven out from among pleasant society men rely upon their brightest thinkers to conjure rationales, rituals, and excuses.

Then other thinkers want to make their bones by making sport of the first thinkers and soon you got an academy of colleges handing out degrees to warrant some few as keepers of the public confidence. This is priestcraft either way and like all games of dramatic conflict it sucks people into the entertainment of it all and profits nothing.

After the blood-lust of men demonstrating their skills wresting all attention away from the divine and turned wholly upon themselves with cathedrals of their own honors the reality of the Holy Spirit is denied withal.

You think the remnants and perpetuation of such spiritual slaughter is maintained by God and it is somehow beautiful?

Show me a present day of Pentecost. That will be beautiful indeed.

Nightlion, I am already aware of the Mormon conspiracy theories and general lack of faith in God.

[_madeleine]

If you don't mind, though, could you explain more on how you view sola scriptura? While I have a third-person understanding of the phrase, I'm curious how you view it? This is for my own edification, not for debate.

Rejection of Sacred Tradition.

[_1 Iron]

If you don't mind, though, could you explain more on how you view sola scriptura? While I have a third-person understanding of the phrase, I'm curious how you view it? This is for my own edification, not for debate.

Rejection of Sacred Tradition.

I am not sure, then, that I understood your point that the LDS view of scripture has it's roots in sola scriptura.

I seriously do not mean to debate that point, but am seeking a more clear understanding of your view. The above short answer left me more unclear as to what you meant.

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion, I am already aware of the Mormon conspiracy theories and general lack of faith in God.

Madame, I am not a Mormon. I am an Apocalrockarian thank you very much.

I accuse the Mormons of the same fault of failure to realize the power of godliness. Look at how they run after learning and honors and hypocrisy.
You cannot find a living Mormon who can so much as tell you HOW to accomplish a Pentecostal promise of the Father that Jesus instructed the Jews carefully to not disperse but continue with on accord until the were in fact visited with the power of the regeneration of the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. You cannot be the true church if you deny or evade and pretend to this in hypocrisy.

[Guest]

Rejection of Sacred Tradition.

I am not sure, then, that I understood your point that the LDS view of scripture has it's roots in sola scriptura.

I seriously do not mean to debate that point, but am seeking a more clear understanding of your view. The above short answer left me more unclear as to what you meant.

From the old Catholic encyclopedia:

"Now in this respect there are several points of controversy between Catholics and every body of Protestants. Is all revealed truth consigned to Holy Scripture? or can it, must it, be admitted that Christ gave to His Apostles to be transmitted to His Church, that the Apostles received either from the very lips of Jesus or from inspiration or Revelation, Divine instructions which they transmitted to the Church and which were not committed to the inspired writings? Must it be admitted that Christ instituted His Church as the official and authentic organ to transmit and explain in virtue of Divine authority the Revelation made to men? [....]Catholics, on the other hand, hold that there may be, that there is in fact, and that there must of necessity be certain revealed truths apart from those contained in the Bible; they hold furthermore that Jesus Christ has established in fact, and that to adapt the means to the end He should have established, a living organ as much to transmit Scripture and written Revelation as to place revealed truth within reach of everyone always and everywhere. Such are in this respect the two main points of controversy between Catholics and so-called orthodox Protestants (as distinguished from liberal Protestants, who admit neither supernatural Revelation nor the authority of the Bible). The other differences are connected with these or follow from them, as also the differences between different Protestant sects--according as they are more or less faithful to the Protestant principle, they recede from or approach the Catholic position." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

Mormons fall into the latter category, of receding or approaching the Catholic position. Mormons reject the Catholic Church as the living organ which transmits Scripture and is the infallible interpreter of Scripture. Also, Mormons reject the Catholic Church as having been given divine instruction that is not in scripture, and is in the Body of the Church itself.

This rejection is a Protestant position, of which, Mormonism is rooted in.