For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

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_lostindc
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _lostindc »

Ceeboo wrote:They (Mormonism and Christianity) posses a wildly different set of "truth calims" and thus are very, very hard to measure under the same umbrella (They must be looked at, measured, evaluated, and considered apart from each other, in my opinion).

Skepticism is certainly fair game for both, but they are very different.

Peace,
Ceeboo


So when you say Christianity you are including which faiths? Do you include different sects of Lutheranism because they have very different believes and very harsh perceptions of Catholicism? Are they on the outside trying to get under the Christian umbrella? Does it matter that they worship the thoughts and actions of Luther kind of like Smith?

Catholicism is no different than any other Church in that everything comes down to: 'I am right you are wrong' (whip out and measure contest).

As far as skepticism being a "fair game for both" I believe that the good Dr. is asking you and whyme to apply some skepticism in terms of being involved in a faith that has a terrible history of child m0lestation. It is pretty difficult to justify following an infallible pope that has a record of hiding child m0lesting clergy. Just think if you could find a record of Monson doing the same...
2019 = #100,000missionariesstrong
_madeleine
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _madeleine »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
madeleine wrote:....because Christianity is based on the premise all of humanity is in need of Salvation. Our need for Salvation is made fairly obvious on a daily basis, including by "Directors, and fellow Believers", and people who don't believe at all...everyone, including ourselves.


Hello Ms. M,

So, essentially there's nothing any Christian leader could do that would cause you to reconsider the truth claims of Christianity?

V/R
Dr. Cameron


The Truth of Christianity is a Person, Jesus Christ, not an ideology.

The Catholic mindset is, Christ is at the head of the Church, and so the Church is Holy because of Him. The Body of Christ, the Church, is made up of fallible humans. There is no Catholic belief that would ever indicate we can become perfected on our own. This is only made possible by Jesus Christ. In Him, with Him and through Him, is the only Way in which we are perfected.

The problem is not Jesus Christ, it is our lack of faith, and it is only Jesus Christ Who is the Solution. Those who commit atrocious crimes are fully aware of the sins they were/are committing, and they know they are in willful defiance of God and are failing as a disciple of Jesus Christ. No doubt, their sins wound the Body of Christ, and cause faith to fail in some. But, my faith is not reliant on humans. (Personally, I got over that in my secular humanist years.)

Also, the view the secular world has of the Church hierarchy is similar to a board of directors. This is not the view that Catholics have of the clergy. While it has been a persistent temptation in Catholicism to create an elitist class, this has been responded to with anti-clericalism among the laity. Not in the form of hating our clergy, but in the form that people are learning to not put them on a pedestal. The clergy are servants of the Servant.

Those who behave in a manner other than servant, have a struggle with serving themselves as the center, rather than Jesus Christ. It is the first temptation of our First Parents, eat of this fruit and become gods....this favored temptation of Evil is forever in our midst. Those who are abusing youth and children, have made themselves gods, and are defiant before God. Some, from their testimony in court and interviews, are defiant to their deaths. In this stance, they have rejected everything that I believe, and that Jesus Christ taught. This does not change the Truth of Christ Crucified, or the fact that I believe the organism He created to transmit this Truth, remains His. To believe otherwise is to believe God has left us orphans, which, is in defiance of Scripture and the teachings of Christ Himself.

The message of the Cross is, Jesus Christ saved us while we were still sinners. There is no person worthy of this Sacrifice, it is a Gift, freely given. God's Mercy. This is not to say those who are committing these grave sins, and are unrepentant, will not know God's Justice. They are visible to both His Mercy and Justice.

As a Catholic, I believe that Mercy is found through Jesus Christ, and the only remedy is Him. He established a Church for the benefit of the faithful, and for these clergy, Christ's Church is their path to Redemption. As Catholics, they have available to them the Sacrament of Reconciliation, also called confession. A false confession, or a confession never made, will not find God's forgiveness, but the Church always has hope for all sinners. So it is the approach that has been made, for decades. Abusing priests need even more the healing Sacraments of the Church, and some of these priests have preyed on God's Mercy, pretending to be repentant. This deception is in the open now, as it should be, but it has never been hidden from God.

The world must turn to Christ.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 31, 2011 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hello Ms. M,

Oh, ok. So the answer to my question is a resounding "NO". I respect your position.

That said...

Can you establish the truth claim that Jesus Christ was a historical Figure? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument.

V/R
Dr. Cam
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_madeleine
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _madeleine »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Hello Ms. M,

Oh, ok. So the answer to my question is a resounding "NO". I respect your position.

That said...

Can you establish the truth claim that Jesus Christ was a historical Figure? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument.

V/R
Dr. Cam


Dr. Cam, the answer is not "NO", as I was raised LDS and became an atheist, living a right and proper nihilist life for a part of my life. My skepticism towards Mormonism not being that of the people, but of the claims of Joseph Smith.

Even as an atheist, I accepted that Jesus Christ was a historical figure, with a view then that he was a more outstanding person than most. The historicity of Jesus Christ has never been an issue for me.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

madeleine wrote:Even as an atheist, I accepted that Jesus Christ was a historical figure, with a view then that he was a more outstanding person than most. The historicity of Jesus Christ has never been an issue for me.


Hello Ms. M,

I'm also an Atheist.

Can you establish the truth claim that Jesus Christ was a historical Figure? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument.

V/R
Dr. Cameron
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_madeleine
_Emeritus
Posts: 2476
Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:03 am

Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _madeleine »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
madeleine wrote:Even as an atheist, I accepted that Jesus Christ was a historical figure, with a view then that he was a more outstanding person than most. The historicity of Jesus Christ has never been an issue for me.


Hello Ms. M,

I'm also an Atheist.

Can you establish the truth claim that Jesus Christ was a historical Figure? Because that seems to be the gist of your argument.

V/R
Dr. Cameron


I think I already answered? Yes. I have sufficiently for myself. I am sure you are aware of the work that is out there on this subject. It is not my agenda here to convert you, or debate with the godless. ;) My husband remains atheist, and I have plenty of these conversations with him. So, that is where I keep my atheist conversations. All other conversations with atheists, are to my view, pointless. You don't believe, I do. We're not going to change each other, and I respect that.

Peace.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Hoops
_Emeritus
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _Hoops »


Just one? (Geez, I am Catholic and I have at least a few)

Anyhoo, thanks for taking the time to share with your Catholic Brother in Christ. :) :) :)

Peace,
Ceeboo


Not to divert too much... and just to make my position clear for the future... the only Catholic doctrine that precludes me from being a Catholic is Real Presence in the Eucharist. That's a critical piece to Catholic expression, it seems to me. I'm not saying I cannot endorse it in the future, I just cannot right now.

And, despite all the impressive harrumphing that goes on around here, Catholic and Evangelical differences are not as profound as advertised. There are differences, for sure, but most of what is given as examples is a misunderstanding of the Catholic or Evangelical position. As an example: Evangelicals usually have no clear idea of the role Pope Benedict plays in Catholic expression of faith. Catholics, it's been my experience, view evangelicals as carried along by any doctrinal whim that strikes there fancy at any one time.

Another day perhaps.
_madeleine
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _madeleine »

Hoops wrote:

Just one? (Geez, I am Catholic and I have at least a few)

Anyhoo, thanks for taking the time to share with your Catholic Brother in Christ. :) :) :)

Peace,
Ceeboo


Not to divert too much... and just to make my position clear for the future... the only Catholic doctrine that precludes me from being a Catholic is Real Presence in the Eucharist. That's a critical piece to Catholic expression, it seems to me. I'm not saying I cannot endorse it in the future, I just cannot right now.

And, despite all the impressive harrumphing that goes on around here, Catholic and Evangelical differences are not as profound as advertised. There are differences, for sure, but most of what is given as examples is a misunderstanding of the Catholic or Evangelical position. As an example: Evangelicals usually have no clear idea of the role Pope Benedict plays in Catholic expression of faith. Catholics, it's been my experience, view evangelicals as carried along by any doctrinal whim that strikes there fancy at any one time.

Another day perhaps.


I appreciate your posts. :) Coming from a LDS, then atheist background, it's only been relatively recently that I've come to understand the nuances in Protestantism, and even then, there is a lot I don't know.

I don't view evangelicals as carried along by any doctrinal whim, but the denominational aspect of Protestantism seems that way to me at times. However, most denominations seem rooted in Christian doctrine that is a uniting factor, and the doctrinal whims seem more associated to particular, charismatic, pastors.

As for the Real Presence, I struggled a lot with many things in my journey from atheism to Catholicism. From the Holy Trinity to being able to say I believe in in the existence of angels. The Real Presence being the last of that struggle, so I understand where you are coming from.

Peace.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Ceeboo
_Emeritus
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hi again lostindc,
lostindc wrote:
So when you say Christianity you are including which faiths? Do you include different sects of Lutheranism because they have very different believes and very harsh perceptions of Catholicism? Are they on the outside trying to get under the Christian umbrella? Does it matter that they worship the thoughts and actions of Luther kind of like Smith?

Catholicism is no different than any other Church in that everything comes down to: 'I am right you are wrong' (whip out and measure contest).

As far as skepticism being a "fair game for both" I believe that the good Dr. is asking you and whyme to apply some skepticism in terms of being involved in a faith that has a terrible history of child m0lestation. It is pretty difficult to justify following an infallible pope that has a record of hiding child m0lesting clergy. Just think if you could find a record of Monson doing the same...



For many reasons, I am going to choose to pass on replying (Sorry)


Peace,
Ceeboo
_richardMdBorn
_Emeritus
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Re: For Whyme: Why are you a Catholic?

Post by _richardMdBorn »

Hoops wrote:
Ceeboo wrote: I am Catholic because I believe that the Catholic Church is firmly rooted in Scripture, is the Church that the Lord had left us with and promised us would stand until the end.
Simply put, I am Catholic because I believe the Catholic Church represents the very base of Christianity.

Peace,
Ceeboo


An incredibly compelling answer, one for which I have no good response to my Catholic friends when they make it to me.
Wouldn't the Eastern Orthodox differ with the Catholics on this?
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