Boy, was I wrong

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_Buffalo
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:

I have misrepresented nothing. I've maintained all along that Will has said things, here and there, infrequently and rarely, in the past, that are inappropriate and should not have been said. I've also maintained that the pseudo-pious moral outrage at, what he has characterized as "PG rated" commentary, and the charge of "misogyny" are completely disingenuous and utterly manufactured, and have a clear ulterior motive (and hence, the clear hypocrisy of those here who have long histories of far worse use of language, not only regarding sexual themes, but in the area of general character assassination and flaming insults at TBMs and apologists, but who have savaged Will for the very same sins, even though his are few and far between, and there's are continuous and unbroken).

I know this, you know this, Jack knows this, and let's stop the needless pretending.

There's no need for it any longer.


Hey remember that crazy misogynist anti-Mormon guy who was always talking about what sluts Mormon women are? Derrick - I forget his last name.

I don't remember, did we apostates support him in that, or did we condemn his misogyny too? Help me remember, Droopy.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

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_Chap
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _Chap »

Droopy wrote: I've maintained all along that Will has said things, here and there, infrequently and rarely, in the past, that are inappropriate and should not have been said.


I get it: Schryver's nasty posts are a bit like the poems of Sappho, which somebody said were 'few, but roses'. Only in Schryver's case the resemblance was not to a flower.

I invite anyone who feels like taking this view to pop over and look at MsJack's original series of posts, in which she manages to fill most of one whole page of a thread with examples of rude things said to or about women by Schryver, and hinging on the fact that they are women and he is a man.

Droopy wrote: I've also maintained that the pseudo-pious moral outrage at, what he has characterized as "PG rated" commentary, and the charge of "misogyny" are completely disingenuous and utterly manufactured, and have a clear ulterior motive (and hence, the clear hypocrisy of those here who have long histories of far worse use of language, not only regarding sexual themes, but in the area of general character assassination and flaming insults at TBMs and apologists, but who have savaged Will for the very same sins, even though his are few and far between, and there's are continuous and unbroken).

I know this, you know this, Jack knows this, and let's stop the needless pretending.

There's no need for it any longer.


The specific complaint of MsJack was not that Schryver used bad words, but that he aimed his unpleasant language specifically at women, and in a fashion calculated to make them reluctant to engage him publicly:

MsJack wrote:This thread concerns William Schryver, a member of the Mormon Discussions community since November 1, 2006, a former member of the Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR), and an apologist for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The purpose of this thread is to raise concern over William's treatment of female participants at Mormon Discussions as well as his remarks on other female figures. The behavior William has displayed towards women here at Mormon Discussions has been undeniably and consistently misogynist.


and in conclusion:

If William does go forward with publication of his Book of Abraham and Kirtland Egyptian Papers work, I cannot imagine that any female academic would feel comfortable addressing his arguments knowing how he routinely treats women who disagree with him. I know I would not.

Ultimately the scholarly process is about conversation, the free and open exchange of ideas by anyone who may be able to make a valid, thoughtful, and well-argued contribution. Bad ideas need to be refuted and refined while good ideas need to be promoted and added to the scholarly corpus. When it is not safe for women to contribute their voices and critiques to an academic conversation due to the misogyny of one of the participants, it's hard to imagine that true scholarship can take place as opposed to the perpetual echo chamber of some good ol' boys network. Which one of those scenarios is William Schryver's participation going to encourage?


Let the reader look, and judge whether they agree with Droopy's characterization or not.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Chap
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _Chap »

malkie wrote:Any speculation on how and why the NAMI folks were so badly misled that they pulled the paper?


Don't think you are going to get a response to that, malkie.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

DrW wrote:
malkie wrote:I'm really puzzled here. What do other academic institutions do?


One thing that critics could do to help put the issue with the Maxwell Institute and Will's "paper" in perspective is to cease referring to what MI and the apologists do as "academic".

The Maxwell Institute is not an academic institution. It is a group of apologists. It is not engaged in free inquiry by any stretch of the imagination.

The sole purpose of MI is to obfuscate, distort, excuse, and do everything possible to try to defend the indefensible for the benefit of those who do not wish to find or face the truth.

Mormon apologist papers are no more "academic" than those presented at a Star Trek convention.


for what it's worth, I disagree with this slightly. The Maxwell Institute *does* engage in some legitimate, scholarly work, such as some of the translation stuff done through ISPART. That said, I wouldn't disagree that FARMS is "not engaged in free inquiry by any stretch of the imagination." I think that part of the strategy in have FARMS associated first with BYU and now with the M.I. is to give it this patina of scholarly credibility, even though, as you point out, it's clearly apologetic, obfuscatory, and vicious in nature. (And yes, I know: not *every* article in the Review fits this description, but historically, overall, it's a fair characterization of what FARMS has been about.)

Dr. Gadianton P. Robbers has laid out a very interesting and useful schema for analyzing the different layers of Mopologetic publications. I don't remember the exact nomenclature that he used, but in essence, he laid out a three-tiered system of publications that the M.I. puts out. One is "cover" apologetics---i.e., legitimate scholarly work that would be accepted and appreciated by legit academics of all stripes. The second level is "semi"-apologetic insofar as it would probably gain traction in scholarly circles, but it contains--in some way, shape, or form--bits of apologetics. An e.g. of this might be, say, an article examining evidence for pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic journeys. Legit scholars might find this interesting/useful, but those of us "in the know" would immediately recognize that this is also trying to shore up arguments for the Book of Mormon. Finally, there is straight up apologetics. Lots of Tvedtnes's stuff falls into this category, and I would also file the hardcore polemical pieces (e.g., the bulk of DCP's FARMS writings) into this category.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_DrW
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _DrW »

DrW wrote: One thing that critics could do to help put the issue with the Maxwell Institute and Will's "paper" in perspective is to cease referring to what MI and the apologists do as "academic".

The Maxwell Institute is not an academic institution. It is a group of apologists. It is not engaged in free inquiry by any stretch of the imagination.

The sole purpose of MI is to obfuscate, distort, excuse, and do everything possible to try to defend the indefensible for the benefit of those who do not wish to find or face the truth.

Mormon apologist papers are no more "academic" than those presented at a Star Trek convention.


Malkie wrote:Are you saying, perhaps, that they have the form of academia, but deny the power thereof?

Consider me to be suitably chastened.

Malkie,

No chastisement was intended (but you already knew that).

I merely found the latest among a large number references to the "academic" work of Mormon apologists, and used it as a segue to make a point that needed to be made.

Like their "creation science" counterparts, Mormon apologist must wake up each day to new scientific evidence that needs to be discredited or reinterpreted, new excuses that need to be made, and a new set of escape routes that need to be charted

To some extent this applies to all of them, from the likes of BYU Professor Bro. John Gee, who apparently finds it difficult to get his work published by by other than Deseret, BYU or FARMS, to Bro. Dan Peterson, who has a nice dodge for every question about the silliness of Mormon beliefs (often involving "insufficient data"), to Bro. Michael Ash, whose inane mindlessness graces the Mormon Times, and all of those in between .

Mormon apologists are destined to fight rear guard actions for their entire careers. They can make no real progress, because they attempt to deny reality. What a waste.

Mormon apologetics will never allow them to experience the incomparable thrill that comes when one discovers something that contributes to the real knowledge and benefit of humankind (instead of contributing to its myths and thus obscuring or crowding out real knowledge).

Mormon apologists continue to talk about (and presumably pray for) their "game changer". It must be frustrating that the real game changers always come from the opposition - from the re-discovery of the Book of Abraham papyri that discredit the Book of Abraham to the DNA data that discredit the Book of Mormon and force changes to be made in the most correct book on Earth. The bad news for apologists just keeps on coming.

I simply do not understand how (or why) they do it.
___________________________________________

Mods: I apologize for the thread de-rail, if you wish, I can re-post these on the Mopology Thread and you can remove them from this one.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_DrW
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _DrW »

Doctor Scratch wrote: for what it's worth, I disagree with this slightly. The Maxwell Institute *does* engage in some legitimate, scholarly work, such as some of the translation stuff done through ISPART. That said, I wouldn't disagree that FARMS is "not engaged in free inquiry by any stretch of the imagination." I think that part of the strategy in have FARMS associated first with BYU and now with the M.I. is to give it this patina of scholarly credibility, even though, as you point out, it's clearly apologetic, obfuscatory, and vicious in nature. (And yes, I know: not *every* article in the Review fits this description, but historically, overall, it's a fair characterization of what FARMS has been about.)

Dr. Gadianton P. Robbers has laid out a very interesting and useful schema for analyzing the different layers of Mopologetic publications. I don't remember the exact nomenclature that he used, but in essence, he laid out a three-tiered system of publications that the M.I. puts out. One is "cover" apologetics---i.e., legitimate scholarly work that would be accepted and appreciated by legit academics of all stripes. The second level is "semi"-apologetic insofar as it would probably gain traction in scholarly circles, but it contains--in some way, shape, or form--bits of apologetics. An e.g. of this might be, say, an article examining evidence for pre-Columbian trans-Atlantic journeys. Legit scholars might find this interesting/useful, but those of us "in the know" would immediately recognize that this is also trying to shore up arguments for the Book of Mormon. Finally, there is straight up apologetics. Lots of Tvedtnes's stuff falls into this category, and I would also file the hardcore polemical pieces (e.g., the bulk of DCP's FARMS writings) into this category.

I see your point and certainly agree mostly with the classification of Dr. Robbers.

My only push-back would be to ask if one engaged in legitimate translation work on non-fraudulent texts is really engaged in apologetics. I would tend to think not.

(Of course, there is the tactic you mention of providing some real information in an attempt to shore up a moribund theory or support an otherwise unsupportable assertion.)
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Chap
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _Chap »

DrW wrote:To some extent this applies to all of them, from the likes of BYU Professor Bro. John Gee, who appears incapable of being published anywhere but FARMS ....


I agree with your overall point, and I also agree that John Gee seems unlikely to ever convince his non=LDS Egyptological colleagues to treat the Book of Abraham as having anything to do with ancient Egypt, or ancient anywhere else.

But it is not fair to him to suggest that he cannot publish outside FARMS. He has published some work in normal scholarly journals - I know that, because I have been to the library and read some of them. No doubt he has them listed online somewhere.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I have misrepresented nothing. I've maintained all along that Will has said things, here and there, infrequently and rarely, in the past, that are inappropriate and should not have been said. I've also maintained that the pseudo-pious moral outrage at, what he has characterized as "PG rated" commentary, and the charge of "misogyny" are completely disingenuous and utterly manufactured, and have a clear ulterior motive (and hence, the clear hypocrisy of those here who have long histories of far worse use of language, not only regarding sexual themes, but in the area of general character assassination and flaming insults at TBMs and apologists, but who have savaged Will for the very same sins, even though his are few and far between, and there's are continuous and unbroken).


Except for the pesky facts, your argument is entirely supported... by your own baseless assumptions, thinking precisely the way your Church has instructed you to think about those who have the intellectual fortitude to get out of something they can no longer in good conscience say is true. In the Op Ed created by MsJack, you spent all your time attacking everyone in sight, calling her a female wolverine, insisting her ulterior motives were in plain sight, etc etc. But then there were those pesky facts that contradict your assumptions. You know, like the fact that we took a poll and virtually everyone here wants William to be published by NAMI (there goes your motive theory). And the fact that NAMI only encountered MsJack's complaint, because it was brought to their attention by other LDS scholars (contrary to your intention theory).

And now you want to pretend you agreed all along that Will used sexually explicit comments towards the women? Your initial comments on that thread consisted of all sorts of rationalizations and it was clear you were eating up this idea that Will was entirely misrepresented from start to finish. The evidence? Your own words. First of all, you told Will that you can empathize with him since you had been falsely accused of sexual innuendo in the past by beastie. You also went on to note that Hugh Nibley was falsely accused of things of a sexual nature by people on this forum. You also spent a great deal of time accusing harmony of lying, simply because you've past judgment on her as an unworthy temple recommend holder.

You made it perfectly clear you believed these were giant misrepresentations and that Will never meant what he said. You even denied he called anyone a whore, and when the evidence was thrown in your face, you pretended you didn't see teh scriptural reference, and asked what breat implants have to do with being a prostitute. When the scripture was spelled out for you as if you were a six year old, you then abandoned the discussion because you were shown to be wrong in your assumption that Will was being misrepresented. You were also quick to call the C-word incident a total fabrication because:

1. harmony holds a temple recommend, much to yoru chagrin.
2. Will denied it happened
3. All the testimonies against Will come from apostates.

That was the extent of yours and Nomad's argument that the whole thing was proved to be a lie. Of course this only goes to expose the anti-analytical nature of your mind. All of your conclusions are based on the usual premises. You're going to support the fellow tribe member and name-call the apostate using as many colorful adjectives that you can spit out in a single breath.

So no droopy, you don't get to claim you believed all along that William was guilty of engaging in sexually explicit vulgarity, because it is now an indisputable fact. You spent most of your time trying to either avoid the subject, or downplay it with silly rationals, such as saying his vulgarity represents only a small fraction of his posting history, and that much worse has been said by the "apostates" throughout the years - though we both know you refuse to provide examples because you have none.

The closest you ever came to saying you disagreed with Will's behavior was when you said "I'm not saying that some of what Will has said here is not inappropriate." LOL! That isn't the same thing as saying you believe he acted inappropriately. It is just a sly way of trying to distance yourself from his behavior, while technically not distancing yourself from his behavior.

Now that Hauglid, Gee and NAMI scholars have turned against Will, so has Pahoran ( essentially agreeing that the critics here had it right all along with respect to Will's sexually charged offenses). The only two left are you and wade; two idiots who actually think they're being loyal to something important by blindly defending William to the end.

Face it, you're left defending a weakling of a man who has to hide behind sock puppets to garner support for himself. A man who drags his poor wife into his misogynistic world just to help his own ego in what he calls a trailer park. A man who lies left and right about what his intentions were. Remember, he denies using circle jerk in a sexual way, and even Pahoran now admits that this isn't true. He has clearly accused a number of us of engaging in a sodomistic orgy as well.

This is the guy you defend, all the while attacking a woman that you've never met and know very little about because she refuses to talk to you on a personal level. For you, she is unworthy to hold a temple recommend, but William Schryver is totally worthy, right? At least as an LDS priesthood holder you won't have to worry about harmony entertaining impure thoughts such as anal sex and jerking off on pastries. At the very least, we know Will Schryver's dark and demented mind conjures up such images at will. If I were an LDS bishop, I'd be far more concerned with Will entering and defiling the temple with his presence, than anyone you choose to call apostate.
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_wenglund
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _wenglund »

malkie wrote: Care to expand on the classification?


You see what you want to see and don't see what you don't wanna.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
_DrW
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Re: Boy, was I wrong

Post by _DrW »

Chap wrote:
DrW wrote:To some extent this applies to all of them, from the likes of BYU Professor Bro. John Gee, who appears incapable of being published anywhere but FARMS ....


I agree with your overall point, and I also agree that John Gee seems unlikely to ever convince his non=LDS Egyptological colleagues to treat the Book of Abraham as having anything to do with ancient Egypt, or ancient anywhere else.

But it is not fair to him to suggest that he cannot publish outside FARMS. He has published some work in normal scholarly journals - I know that, because I have been to the library and read some of them. No doubt he has them listed online somewhere.

Chap,

That is what I thought as well when I first mentioned his name. Then I quickly looked up his wikki entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gee#Papers and saw pretty much nothing but BYU and FARMS publications.

According to his Wiki page, out of six Papers (among which he counts his thesis), one was published outside of BYU or FARMS by the Society of Biblical Literature.

Among his publications designated as Articles (which would normally not undergo external peer review, and are usually a review or commentary in nature), I saw three out of 36 listed that were not from BYU, Deseret, FARMS or other LDS publishers.

Of the Books, all four were FARMS publications.

However, after reading your post, I agree that the "appears incapable" wording in my post was not entirely fair.

Accordingly, I went back and edited the original passage to read: --- Bro. John Gee, who apparently finds it difficult to get his work published by other than Deseret, BYU or FARMS,---

Now, consider his publication record. (He published his thesis on the Book of Abraham in 1987 and has had only 3 or 4 publications by other than by LDS Church publishers in his career of some 24 years). Would you consider him a "real" academic, - one who could compete for an academic position that was not at BYU or other LDS Church College?

Hope he has tenure. Because with a publication record like that, and IMHO, his chances of getting a position anywhere but BYU would be slim to none.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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