Buffalo wrote:Can you at least admit that the fact that the state with the most Mormons per capita is also the most depressed state could have troubling implications for Mormonism?
Maybe Stem is right in saying that the LDS Church might not be the cause of the high rate of depression. What other causes could there be for the stats?
Utah has a disturbing physical shape. It's missing it's North East Corner (stolen by Wyoming I suspect). Everyone is feeling a little cheated.
A giant inland sea that is too salty to be of any use. A bummer.
Land-locked seagulls never able to fulfill their potential in a real ocean (very depressing to have to see everyday).
Too many National Parks. The stress of having to choose between them for a vacation.
Too many mountains. Useless as farm land.
BYU doesn't always win at sports.
The skiing is too good. All those annoying tourists in the winter.
The list goes on.
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Buffalo wrote:Can you at least admit that the fact that the state with the most Mormons per capita is also the most depressed state could have troubling implications for Mormonism?
If its indeed true that Utah is the most depressed state, then of coruse your propisition is a possibility.
The unhealthy culture of perfectionism takes its hardest role on women, who are told from childhood that they have no other spiritually important role in life beyond being homemakers.
That's straight up fabrication, it seems.
I assume you mean the part about women - I think (hope) we can all agree that the Mormons often feel that they need to be perfect.
I did amend this to say mothers/homemakers. It has been consistently taught that this is the crowning glory of womanhood, that this is the role God has in mind for women, instead of the priesthood or providing for families. Recently there has been some softening in the stance on careers for women, but the church still teaches that the primary spiritual calling of women is to be wives and mothers.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
I do not disagree with most of what you wrote. However, I do think the Church is becoming more caring towards women, more accepting of women working outside the home and even a bit more tolerant of the non traditional woman. It seems that they almost have to be since so many married women now work and many need to just for the family to survive. Also, there are many active single women in the Church, far more than men. But there is still work to do.
Now can I take a stand on the pressure and expectation of perfection put on men?
From day 1 men are told that it is an obligation to serve a two year mission. A mission is no small task. The obligatory role of a mission is further enforced these days when the Church leaders tell women they can serve but it is not a priesthood obligation like it is for the men. Also, the bar to serve has been raised. Certain sins/mishaps/bad choices can forever bar a young man from serving. This is the case even if her repents sincerely of a transgression. On top of that emotional problems can bar service. Young men who do not serve but are still active are often stigmatized by members of their ward.
They are also told to be worthy of this special priesthood power that is the power of God and more powerful than the power even a king or president has. They are given assignments and expected to perform at a fairly high level even at a young age. Worthiness is paramount which of course means no sexual activity including masturbation. Words, thoughts and deeds can condemn us as well.
Then there is the mission itself. The hours are long, the work difficult. Poor mission presidents can make the lives a missionary miserable. Living conditions can be poor. Lack of convert success is often blamed on the missionaries not having enough faith, or not working hard enough or not keeping rigorous and sometimes arbitrary rules.
Then the young man comes home from his mission or if he did not serve is now going to college or striking out to earn a living. He is pressured to marry, start a family, serve in the church in callings that take at times an enormous amount of time. He is told to be a success in whatever he does. Work hard, earn a good living, give money and time to the Church. But at the same time don't over do it in your career. Be home, take time for your kids, have FHE, scripture study, lead in the home, get your kids to early morning seminary, be kind to your wife and help with the house work, and do 100% plus home teaching, and be an EQ Pres, YM pres, Ward mission leader, counselor in a bishopric, bishop, high councilor and on and on. Don't say no to a calling, magnify your priesthood and on and on.
Men are expected to be great servers, great priesthood holders, the best husbands, providers and fathers out there. They are to work hard at their jobs at the same time giving often 10-20 hours or more a week to their church calling.
And while we are told not to aspire to leadership positions we revere our leader including local leader and view those in substantive callings with a bit of awe and respect that can often cause those that do not receive such callings as a bit less than best.
Well I could go on and on. I don't do this to diminish the challenges faced by LDS women. But men in the LDS Church also have a huge burden. Personally, and maybe this is just my nature, up until I was in my early 40s I never felt good enough and felt that I had to be perfect but never would be. It caused me some heavy depression and I will admit that may be some of my make up. But it took me some soul searching, some modification on how I viewed God, Christ and my relationship with them to get to the point where I felt some peace about some of these things.
Members are told that they are superior to the rest of the world, and yet paradoxically nothing they do is ever good enough. The standard is perfection, and no one can meet it. Members are put under a heavy burden of guilt and shame for normal and often trivial human failings.
Again disputed territory. I don't know if LDS agree with your characterization of us. It doesn't square with me.
How many lessons have you sat through that made you feel like a failure (or tried to) because you didn't meet your home teaching numbers? Or as a youth, making you feel like the worst person in the world for flogging the dolphin?
stemelbow wrote:
The damage inflicted on members of color is probably even greater. Most of the core racist teachings of the church through most of its existence have never been officially denounced, only quietly de-emphasized. The church leadership never apologizes, never admits error. Criticism, no matter how constructive, is never tolerated. Questioning doctrines too loudly will jeopardize your membership.
I agree with you on the race issue. I wish it was never an issue at all. To not apologize seems stupid. But I criticized right there and no problems at all. I've been tolerated for disagreement often.
Perhaps you can extend women the same courtesy? They're every bit as much victims of sexism as blacks are victims of racism on the part of the church.
stemelbow wrote:
Dictatorial Leadership: Management that does not allow disagreements out of insecurity or arrogance
While I hear what you're saying, I roll my eyes a little. This is definitely over-stated by you.
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
DrW wrote:One attribute of a cult is that its members are required to work for the cult without compensation. In other words, they are required to donate labor. The recent change in Church policy, wherein every member was expected to clean the meeting houses, even though they may already be full (and substantial) tithe payers, seems to me to be a large and highly visible step in the direction of cultism, not away from it.
As opposed to in the past where the members were expected to build the building?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I do not disagree with most of what you wrote. However, I do think the Church is becoming more caring towards women, more accepting of women working outside the home and even a bit more tolerant of the non traditional woman. It seems that they almost have to be since so many married women now work and many need to just for the family to survive. Also, there are many active single women in the Church, far more than men. But there is still work to do.
Now can I take a stand on the pressure and expectation of perfection put on men?
From day 1 men are told that it is an obligation to serve a two year mission. A mission is no small task. The obligatory role of a mission is further enforced these days when the Church leaders tell women they can serve but it is not a priesthood obligation like it is for the men. Also, the bar to serve has been raised. Certain sins/mishaps/bad choices can forever bar a young man from serving. This is the case even if her repents sincerely of a transgression. On top of that emotional problems can bar service. Young men who do not serve but are still active are often stigmatized by members of their ward.
They are also told to be worthy of this special priesthood power that is the power of God and more powerful than the power even a king or president has. They are given assignments and expected to perform at a fairly high level even at a young age. Worthiness is paramount which of course means no sexual activity including masturbation. Words, thoughts and deeds can condemn us as well.
Then there is the mission itself. The hours are long, the work difficult. Poor mission presidents can make the lives a missionary miserable. Living conditions can be poor. Lack of convert success is often blamed on the missionaries not having enough faith, or not working hard enough or not keeping rigorous and sometimes arbitrary rules.
Then the young man comes home from his mission or if he did not serve is now going to college or striking out to earn a living. He is pressured to marry, start a family, serve in the church in callings that take at times an enormous amount of time. He is told to be a success in whatever he does. Work hard, earn a good living, give money and time to the Church. But at the same time don't over do it in your career. Be home, take time for your kids, have FHE, scripture study, lead in the home, get your kids to early morning seminary, be kind to your wife and help with the house work, and do 100% plus home teaching, and be an EQ Pres, YM pres, Ward mission leader, counselor in a bishopric, bishop, high councilor and on and on. Don't say no to a calling, magnify your priesthood and on and on.
Men are expected to be great servers, great priesthood holders, the best husbands, providers and fathers out there. They are to work hard at their jobs at the same time giving often 10-20 hours or more a week to their church calling.
And while we are told not to aspire to leadership positions we revere our leader including local leader and view those in substantive callings with a bit of awe and respect that can often cause those that do not receive such callings as a bit less than best.
Well I could go on and on. I don't do this to diminish the challenges faced by LDS women. But men in the LDS Church also have a huge burden. Personally, and maybe this is just my nature, up until I was in my early 40s I never felt good enough and felt that I had to be perfect but never would be. It caused me some heavy depression and I will admit that may be some of my make up. But it took me some soul searching, some modification on how I viewed God, Christ and my relationship with them to get to the point where I felt some peace about some of these things.
You make some great points. Men in the church face a great deal of pressure and stress. I guess the church really isn't good for you no matter who you are - unless you're of the personality type that thrives under authoritarian, hyper-conservative and super-legalistic religious structures.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:You make some great points. Men in the church face a great deal of pressure and stress. I guess the church really isn't good for you no matter who you are - unless you're of the personality type that thrives under authoritarian, hyper-conservative and super-legalistic religious structures.
Or a person who is hard-wired to follow tradition.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Buffalo wrote:This is why I don't often write long posts. Responding to multiple lines of thought at once is very time consuming. I'll take these as I have time.
Of course it's disputable. Almost everything is. As I listen to more and more stories of Mormons harmed by the church (both those still believing and those who have left), I'd say it's hard to dispute that at least the LDS church is not a positive influence on all of its members.
I can go with that, as you put it. The Church isn't for everyone. Of course its hard to prove the Church is at fault for not being a positive influence for every member.
Hi Stem.
You've said something like this several times, I believe. This idea has been percolating in my mind for a while, and I'd be interested in your further thoughts.
I'm curious about whether you reached this conclusion based solely on observation (i.e., there are some people who do not seem to benefit from being members), or also based on analysis (i.e., certain kinds of people do not seem to benefit from being members).
If the latter, could you tell us a bit about the characteristics of people that you think the Church isn't for?
Also, do you think that it is the case that the Church is not (suitable) for everyone, or that some have made themselves unsuitable for the Church?
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
Listening to a Mormon Matters podcast on youth right now, I'm seeing some of the same concerns echoes about women in the church (which my wife, a TBM, has also expressed to me).
Essentially, that we have sacralized the family so much, and if a woman isn't a mother/wife she has no role in the LDS gospel. In Relief Society she hears about how to be a better mother/wife, but not a better christian, or a better person. Even in singles wards the relief society lessons focus on issues surrounding being a wife and mother. Anyone who doesn't meet those descriptions feels like an outsider with no important role to play.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.