Joseph Smith mega thread. We'll see

[_just me]

The biggest hit my testimony of Joseph Smith took was when I discovered he had lied about polygamy. When I learned he was a public liar I then had to question every single thing he had ever said.

Now, people can say "everyone lies." Ok, fine. But that doesn't mean you go on to do business dealings with the person or trust them with 10% of your income (or consecrate all you have to them). Seriously.

Joseph lied. He lied about polygamy. If it was so important that god was going to kill him if he didn't get it on than he should have been publicly announcing it.

The fact that polygamy was against the commandments of the church is just that much more damning. Joseph should have been excommunicated.

[_stemelbow]

So, some of the things that I see that are manipulative or abusive:

*D&C 132. It is abusive and manipulative.

Just curious if you have any specifics.

*Telling women that god will kill you if they don't "marry" you.
*Telling a girl that her whole family will enherit eternal life if she will "marry" you.
*Threatening to ruin the rep of a woman if she won't marry you. This was followed through on.
*Joseph made sure that his family members had paying jobs within the context of the church.
*Joseph used revelations to see that he had a house/business built and was supported by the membership.
*Danites.
*Revelations were used to call out people as friend or foe.

Maybe it'd be easier for me if you just started with one in particular that you'd like to bring to the fore and we can discuss from there.

[_Buffalo]

Good day, Stem,

I would suggest that the great majority of people who are not LDS ("critics" if you like), do not label Mr. Smith as "evil". They simply reject his claims, teachings, etc.

for what it's worth, I believe the biggest tragedy, concerning the legacy/claims/teachings of Joseph Smith, is the large numbers of atheists he has had a huge impact on creating.
(To be clear, this is just my opinion)

Peace,
Ceeboo

On the contrary, it's his greatest achievement!

[_just me]

So, some of the things that I see that are manipulative or abusive:

*D&C 132. It is abusive and manipulative.

Just curious if you have any specifics.

*Telling women that god will kill you if they don't "marry" you.
*Telling a girl that her whole family will enherit eternal life if she will "marry" you.
*Threatening to ruin the rep of a woman if she won't marry you. This was followed through on.
*Joseph made sure that his family members had paying jobs within the context of the church.
*Joseph used revelations to see that he had a house/business built and was supported by the membership.
*Danites.
*Revelations were used to call out people as friend or foe.

Maybe it'd be easier for me if you just started with one in particular that you'd like to bring to the fore and we can discuss from there.

Well, let's just go with polygamy and lying. It is kind of a broad and deep topic, I know.

D&C 132 threatens women with "destruction" if they do not comply with polygamy. It also says that if they don't give their permission their husband is free to practice and they are condemned. That is spiritual and emotional abuse and manipulation. It is also sexual abuse when the victim is too frightened to say "no" because they have been threatened with "destruction."

You are free to respond to the points I have made as to the other threats and manipulation used by Joseph in his practice of polygamy. Also the lying.

[_Ceeboo]

Hey Buffalo,

On the contrary, it's his greatest achievement!

Well, at least we can agree about the results.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_stemelbow]

Good day, Stem,

I would suggest that the great majority of people who are not LDS ("critics" if you like), do not label Mr. Smith as "evil". They simply reject his claims, teachings, etc.

for what it's worth, I believe the biggest tragedy, concerning the legacy/claims/teachings of Joseph Smith, is the large numbers of atheists he has had a huge impact on creating.
(To be clear, this is just my opinion)

Peace,
Ceeboo

In your opinion how many atheists does that equate to? Has he had an impact on creating more than anyone else? Afterall there are perhaps more ex-Catholic folks that are atheists than there are ex-LDS, right?

[_stemelbow]

The biggest hit my testimony of Joseph Smith took was when I discovered he had lied about polygamy. When I learned he was a public liar I then had to question every single thing he had ever said.

Now, people can say "everyone lies." Ok, fine. But that doesn't mean you go on to do business dealings with the person or trust them with 10% of your income (or consecrate all you have to them). Seriously.

Joseph lied. He lied about polygamy. If it was so important that god was going to kill him if he didn't get it on than he should have been publicly announcing it.

The fact that polygamy was against the commandments of the church is just that much more damning. Joseph should have been excommunicated.

So let's consider...If Joseph Smith was commanded to restore the practice of polygamy as the ancients, as was his claim, essentially, and if we consider the culture of anti-polygamy he was in, then what is so wrong about keeping it secret if it was all God sanctioned, particularly if God sanctioned the lying?

[_stemelbow]

Well, let's just go with polygamy and lying. It is kind of a broad and deep topic, I know.

D&C 132 threatens women with "destruction" if they do not comply with polygamy.

So can you quote the details?

It also says that if they don't give their permission their husband is free to practice and they are condemned. That is spiritual and emotional abuse and manipulation. It is also sexual abuse when the victim is too frightened to say "no" because they have been threatened with "destruction."

But if God offers a command and with that command says you shall be "destroyed" if you do not abide that command, then is it still abuse? It seems in all this you are assuming Joseph Smith was making it all up. but that is not his claim, of course.

You are free to respond to the points I have made as to the other threats and manipulation used by Joseph in his practice of polygamy. Also the lying.

Thanks. YOu have, so far been the most responsive to my OP.

[_stemelbow]

Hey Buffalo,

On the contrary, it's his greatest achievement!

Well, at least we can agree about the results.

Peace,
Ceeboo

How do you know you guys agree? What are the results?

[_Morley]

...then what is so wrong about keeping it secret if it was all God sanctioned, particularly if God sanctioned the lying?

Emphasis added.

Um, this isn't my God.